Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
Fs HAS adjustment, the Chrono does not, off the shelf IIUC. And I'm curious as to why there are no threads about drops in performance due to lack of tune-ability. Maybe Ozone cracked the materials issues...
Well. There are 2 schools of thought.
The most reliable system is the simplest system. Less to go wrong, less to move. But down side. No off the shelf adjustment. But easy to install it you want to increase complexity and adjustability.
Or increase complexity for increased adjustability/performance...... Complexity is less reliable than simplicity. This is the case with most things.....
None the less I liked the adjustment of the FS speed system. But at the same time I had to adjust it often. On the flip side my ozone foils flew well for hundreds of hours without any adjustment. But getting toward the end of their usefull life they flew worse and worse.
The flysurfers ability to adjust the mixer doesn't preclude its fabric from stretching and getting porous. So there comes a point that the kite is just too worn and needs replacement......
Overall there are advantages and drawbacks from both ways of doing.
It's just the same line looped through a ring. Not much complexity, eh. I see no drawback., except encourage people to fiddle...
I think you just fiddle too much. 
I adjust relairive line lengths far more often than Mixers...
I also think it stretches a lot less than you think, ans the bridles shrink a lot more. You gotta be talking about several hundred hours of use to get totally borked and porous fabric... I've used my 21 for close to 300 hours and I got it used. The trailing edge is looking ratty from dragging over the harsh sand on our beach, but it's still a long way from needing coating or other shennanigans. It's already superseded, but it'll still be years before it's ready for the scrap heap.
For the R1, I except those racing on the bleeding edge will need every advantage they can get, but Joe Public can live without replacing the bridles every 60 hours...
Ok it's pretty clear. "THE SPEED SYSTEM AND BRIDLE LINES" to be replaced every 60 hours of flying time. But I am still confused about a few issues.
No. 1) How many lines are we talking about in total?
No. 2) What are the issues? Breaking over time, or stretch, or just ensuring high performance? * (once again, if it's performance, I get it)
No. 3) Not that cost is such an issue, as by now you've already broken the bank, but how much are we talking, parts and labour?
No. 4) Is this something that has to be done by a trained professional, ie send it back to the manufacturers, cause I wouldn't trust myself, or half the shop owners out there to get it right. (no offence, but thats a lot of lines to f**k up)
No. 5) Is this Ozone covering themselves because of issues with the Chrono?
Lots. All of them!
Shrinking. Wing gets out of spec by a little which is enough to cost the fast boys a place or so.
Lots for parts ($10 a line, say) and as there are no LCLs, you gotta do the whole thing one at a time, but it won't take that long... Two or three hours, tops.
Nah, DIY. If they label your lines when they send them to you, and you can follow a line plan.
Issues? What issues? I read it as going for max performance with no compromises....
Select to expand quotehusa said..
Ok it's pretty clear. "THE SPEED SYSTEM AND BRIDLE LINES" to be replaced every 60 hours of flying time. But I am still confused about a few issues.
No. 1) How many lines are we talking about in total?
No. 2) What are the issues? Breaking over time, or stretch, or just ensuring high performance? * (once again, if it's performance, I get it)
No. 3) Not that cost is such an issue, as by now you've already broken the bank, but how much are we talking, parts and labour?
No. 4) Is this something that has to be done by a trained professional, ie send it back to the manufacturers, cause I wouldn't trust myself, or half the shop owners out there to get it right. (no offence, but thats a lot of lines to f**k up)
No. 5) Is this Ozone covering themselves because of issues with the Chrono?
Hi husa
Ozone are planning to release some info to clarify the "60 hrs" thing, please be patient. The kites have not hit the streets yet so a lot of this is conjecture and forumouring.
The issue will be the kite getting out of factory trim by any combination of stretching or shrinkage, loss of performance will be the trigger to replace, not breakage.
Anyone will be able to change their bridles over they just need an indoor space larger enough for half the kite to laid out flat. I've replaced a chrono bridle about an hour per side, leave the beer till afterwards.
I don't have bridle pricing, but should be similar to chrono so around $400, expect a shop to charge around $100 on top to do the job for you.
There have not been issues with the Chrono, other than a lot of people that bought them had never flown foils before and they unwittingly treated them quite badly.
Joe Public should not be buying the R1, it is a pure race kite. It is not for jumping and freeride and no Ozone dealer should be selling them to anyone except die hard racers. The Chrono 2 is the kite for freeride and boosting.
Wow... Ok entire bridle replacement.
I understand it for the nose bleeding edge of competition.
But at the same time it is going to spell the death of competitive competition for the general punter.
Sad times when stuff gets this specialized.
I guess it was going to go this way eventually.
like motor racing, just pick your class. If you're good enough to make it to the top, you'll get the gear and the technology developed at the belle ding edge will filter down to is mere mortals. It's all win-win!
Just demoing the Flysurfer Sonic 11m (thanks to James)and have to say that this issue re-bridles and speed lines is not mentioned and they supply a spare set of the yellow speed running lines in the spares bag with the kite! May be Ozone could do the same?
The riders that are always in the top ten, and even the next 10, take racing extremely seriously. Some have raw talent and an uncanny knack of picking the right part of the course for wind shifts, all of them are masters of tacking and gybing, one fall or even a stumble and podium finish for that race is over.
I watched all the racers at Townsville last year, they are very particular with their gear. One in particular was simply amazing to watch and that was Nico Parlier, in between races he was always working on his lines, he did not use stock lines or any part of his rigging or trim system. Nico made all of it himself, the only stock item was the actual bar, he did not use a chicken loop, instead he had a wichard shackle at the end of the centre line. All of his lines were hand made and he made them specifically for each event, he had the best ever techniques for making lines exactly to the length he wanted, and his lock splices in flying line were perfect. Some races he would use extensions and because all his lines were spliced he could add or take off line to give him the optimum length. In close racing longer lines or shorter lines can give a clear advantage, he hardly ever used the same setup from one race to the next.
He made bridles for other riders, his skill with fine bridle line and splicing was like nothing I'd ever seen up to then or since, and we had a guy in our Sydney store that was pretty good too.
He made bridles for Elfs and Chronos while I was there, all he needed was the matching line from the other side of the kite.
I don't understand the pessimism and negativity, Ozone is just being open and upfront. The riders that are super competitive demand the utmost performance and they will fit new bridles with no complaints I'm sure! Racing of any sort tends to be expensive, small volume products and parts....
Ozone have just provided an update on the R1 bridle, see link below.
ozonekites.com/images/uploads/products/R1-Bridle-Check.pdf
That's an interesting link. The "speed system zero position" test is what Flysurfer call the "Mixer test". We do it essentially the same way, and if the knots are out of alignment we then lengthen or shorten the lines running to the pulleys to restore the knots back to the "zero" setting. This basicly effects the shape of the canopy and allows you to trim out any discrepancies due to line shrinkage / stretching. Quite straightforward once you've done it once.
Select to expand quoteTerryMcTool said..
The riders that are always in the top ten, and even the next 10, take racing extremely seriously. Some have raw talent and an uncanny knack of picking the right part of the course for wind shifts, all of them are masters of tacking and gybing, one fall or even a stumble and podium finish for that race is over.
I watched all the racers at Townsville last year, they are very particular with their gear. One in particular was simply amazing to watch and that was Nico Parlier, in between races he was always working on his lines, he did not use stock lines or any part of his rigging or trim system. Nico made all of it himself, the only stock item was the actual bar, he did not use a chicken loop, instead he had a wichard shackle at the end of the centre line. All of his lines were hand made and he made them specifically for each event, he had the best ever techniques for making lines exactly to the length he wanted, and his lock splices in flying line were perfect. Some races he would use extensions and because all his lines were spliced he could add or take off line to give him the optimum length. In close racing longer lines or shorter lines can give a clear advantage, he hardly ever used the same setup from one race to the next.
He made bridles for other riders, his skill with fine bridle line and splicing was like nothing I'd ever seen up to then or since, and we had a guy in our Sydney store that was pretty good too.
He made bridles for Elfs and Chronos while I was there, all he needed was the matching line from the other side of the kite.
I don't understand the pessimism and negativity, Ozone is just being open and upfront. The riders that are super competitive demand the utmost performance and they will fit new bridles with no complaints I'm sure! Racing of any sort tends to be expensive, small volume products and parts....
Yup. And you know when kiting has hit the major, MAJOR league when kite racers have their own pit crews :D
Select to expand quoteTerryMcTool said..
....The issue will be the kite getting out of factory trim by any combination of stretching or shrinkage, loss of performance will be the trigger to replace, not breakage.
...
If it's to set the kite back to factory trim why not just re-trim the wing? That's easy enough to do. I adjusted my paraglider trim last season (hence the laser measuring rig).
Select to expand quoteKamikuza said..
How did you do that?
You put loops in the lines where they meet at the bottom. Straight loop is normal, double loop is about 4mm shorter, hitch is about 8mm shorter, hitch with a loop is bout 10mm shorter. That will vary depending on how thin the lines are.
Alternately you can make up new A,B or C lines to correct pitch problems. Splicing line down to 1mm is easy. I have not been able to splice 0.5mm line, but I haven't tried very hard yet. If they can do it in the factory I should be able to work it out. For minor repairs and adjustments 1mm line is fine.
PS If you're going to fly kites with bridles and thin lines then you have to learn how to splice thin lines. Imagine if you're about to go out for a big race and you snag a line on the beach and break it. Game over on your multi-$1000 hydrofoil and racing kite rig. It's much easier to splice in a new line in place than to dismantle a whole bridle to put in a replacement.
To splice thin lines you need:
- guitar string to use as a FID unwound. high E or B is best.
- some hollow core line.
- very sharp knife or scissors
- some craft glue to lock in the splice.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
Kamikuza said..
How did you do that?
You put loops in the lines where they meet at the bottom. Straight loop is normal, double loop is about 4mm shorter, hitch is about 8mm shorter, hitch with a loop is bout 10mm shorter. That will vary depending on how thin the lines are.
Alternately you can make up new A,B or C lines to correct pitch problems. Splicing line down to 1mm is easy. I have not been able to splice 0.5mm line, but I haven't tried very hard yet. If they can do it in the factory I should be able to work it out. For minor repairs and adjustments 1mm line is fine.
PS If you're going to fly kites with bridles and thin lines then you have to learn how to splice thin lines. Imagine if you're about to go out for a big race and you snag a line on the beach and break it. Game over on your multi-$1000 hydrofoil and racing kite rig. It's much easier to splice in a new line in place than to dismantle a whole bridle to put in a replacement.
To splice thin lines you need:
- guitar string to use as a FID unwound. high E or B is best.
- some hollow core line.
- very sharp knife or scissors
- some craft glue to lock in the splice.
Would be great if you could do a little video of you doing this, or you know of one that you feel is good
If you are designing kite for the top end racers, the best designed kite would be one that stays together perfectly through the race, and rips itself to shreds the moment you finish.
That way you aren't carrying anything excess for the race.
Thats racing pure and simple.
If it were me, I would use the lines for 60hrs and then make my own out of normal line so it can last a couple seasons.
But then again if it were me I wouldn't be buying this kite
