I am not happy with my windlass setup - the wire run is too long with the windlass too far from batteries so I am going to install a dedicated high CCA battery at the bow with the windlass.
At the moment I have a Voltage Sensing Relay so that the alternator charges the house batteries after the start battery is charged (reaches 13.3V).
What I want to do is also charge the windlass battery, as well as the house bank, from the alternator after the start battery is charged.
I could be way off course here but my idea is to use a second VSR as follows:
From start battery run through VSR 1 to windlass battery - When start battery is charged (reaches 13.3V) alternator charges windlass battery.
From windlass battery run through VSR 2 to house batteries - When windlass battery is charged, as well as the start battery, the alternator charges house batteries.
Or would I be better off running both VSRs from the start battery
Is any of this possible???
Is there an easier / more efficient method???
Is there such as thing as a double / dual VSR that will do the job???
TIA,
Larry
Just pondering the set up.
If the VSR units are the same, in either set up the house and windlass batteries will start charging at the same time. I think you want the charging order to be start - windlass - house. When both batteries connect it is likely the VSR will shut off leading to it cycling off and on. If you have different operation voltages - say 13.3 and 13.5 - you probably would not have an issue.
Presumably, you'd sometimes be running the winch only off the battery as the alternator may not have yet brought up the voltage enough to trigger the VSR.
Cheers
Bristol
Hi There, you may check or try: Epever 10A 20A Dual Battery Solar Charge Controller 12V/24V Regulator Meter MT-1
it is on eBay for $30/50. You can decide ammount of %charge going to individual battery continously,
Lazz, how long and what diameter cable have you got presently run ? 2x say 10m ok 20m of good arc welding cable ain't cheap but dicken around with extra batteries and fancy relays could be just as expensive and be a potential pain in the A...
and to charge the extra battery your proably going to have to either get a bigger alternator or be able to manually manipulate the field on your existing alt to get a more constant amp flow
and at a guess a voltage sensitive relay wouldn't switch to the next battery until the previous one was full charge an if the previous batt was a bit dicky then the relay might not switch. If you know what I mean ?
Woops got a bit carried away there, so how big is the cable to your winch ?
A winch really should be connected to the start battery with large enough cables to prevent voltage drop (70mm welding flex 200amp cable is what you need) and your engine should be running while winching. In your case the next best thing, but I don't really like it as you can still have problems with voltage under high load would be to install a DC/DC charger adjacent to your new battery at the winch and connect it to the start battery. Forget the VSR ideas as they are not really meant for this purpose.
Select to expand quoteLazzz said..
I am not happy with my windlass setup - the wire run is too long with the windlass too far from batteries so I am going to install a dedicated high CCA battery at the bow with the windlass.
At the moment I have a Voltage Sensing Relay so that the alternator charges the house batteries after the start battery is charged (reaches 13.3V).
What I want to do is also charge the windlass battery, as well as the house bank, from the alternator after the start battery is charged.
I could be way off course here but my idea is to use a second VSR as follows:
From start battery run through VSR 1 to windlass battery - When start battery is charged (reaches 13.3V) alternator charges windlass battery.
From windlass battery run through VSR 2 to house batteries - When windlass battery is charged, as well as the start battery, the alternator charges house batteries.
Or would I be better off running both VSRs from the start battery
Is any of this possible???
Is there an easier / more efficient method???
Is there such as thing as a double / dual VSR that will do the job???
TIA,
Larry
HI Larry,
What is the issue with your current setup? (nyuk, nyuk..see what I did there?)
Is the windlass slow, or are the cables uncomfortably hot after use?
Is your engine always running when using it?
Cheers!
SB
I wish I understood elektricity stuff more.
Question for the more edumucated, using Lazz' example, how much current is there across theses wires if an 100A alternator is charging the house and windlass batteries as well as all the power needed for the engine and all the other stuff?
If I look at a 1000w windlass, on a 12v circuit that equates to a max of 80A.
I'm trying to work out if there is significantly less current across the wires if you set up as per Lazz's drawing.
Jode, you mention this is not a normal application of a VSR. What are VSR's normally used for?
Yep, imho you'd always want the engine on and charging the winching battery. A VSR is good for managing the order of charging - start then house - but not for distributing loads. They are also good for avoiding any manual change over with its risks of a momentary loss of load stuffing the alternator.
The suggestion of just upgrading the connecting cables is a good one.
Cheers
Bristol
www.ctek.com/products/on-board/d250sa
i know it's costly, however well worth it, including solar charger and DC-DC for deep cycle batteries.
Makes the best use of Alternator current, and proper charge cycle.
Will trickle charge starter from solar after house is fully charged, and charges house from Alternator and Solar at the same time!!!
My first investment on my new yacht, and don't regret. Only drawback is watch Solar voltage limit and limited to 20a unless combined with the other module, and max 300a/h batteries....
Researched heaps of others prior, this worked for me
Would only need maybe 4-6mm2 cable to run to battery in bow ??? Bigger is always better though
Running new cable depends on the Windlass, see what your numbers say. Work it out like this:.
Estimate the length of the cable run from the battery you want to use to the windlass. Say its 10m by the time it goes around corners and is neat. That means total of 20m there and back.
Say you use 250A cable which is easy to get Altronics W4190A. 15.5mm OD, conductor 50sq mm. Thats close enough to 1AWG size. Its the biggest practical. 1AWG cable resistance is 0.4 ohms per 1000m.
So your total 20m circuit resistance in ohms is 20m/1000m x 0.4 ohms = 0.008 ohms.
Using ohms law (volts=amps x resistance) if your Windlass needs 200A then your voltage loss on that cable is 200 amps x 0.008 ohms which is 1.6V.
That means if you battery was at 12.6V the Windlass would be working on 11V. Depends if the Windlass is happy with that. It should say in its instruction manual. (Of course if the Windlass only needs 100A then your loss is only 0.8V etc).
If it was me I would put a 100A battery on the bow and simply connect it in parallel with the source battery via much lighter cables and a switch/circuit breaker so you can isolate it if you want.
Select to expand quoteTrek said..
Running new cable depends on the Windlass, see what your numbers say. Work it out like this:.
Estimate the length of the cable run from the battery you want to use to the windlass. Say its 10m by the time it goes around corners and is neat. That means total of 20m there and back.
Say you use 250A cable which is easy to get Altronics W4190A. 15.5mm OD, conductor 50sq mm. Thats close enough to 1AWG size. Its the biggest practical. 1AWG cable resistance is 0.4 ohms per 1000m.
So your total 20m circuit resistance in ohms is 20m/1000m x 0.4 ohms = 0.008 ohms.
Using ohms law (volts=amps x resistance) if your Windlass needs 200A then your voltage loss on that cable is 200 amps x 0.008 ohms which is 1.6V.
That means if you battery was at 12.6V the Windlass would be working on 11V. Depends if the Windlass is happy with that. It should say in its instruction manual. (Of course if the Windlass only needs 100A then your loss is only 0.8V etc).
If it was me I would put a 100A battery on the bow and simply connect it in parallel with the source battery via much lighter cables and a switch/circuit breaker so you can isolate it if you want.Select to expand quoteTrek said..
Running new cable depends on the Windlass, see what your numbers say. Work it out like
Estimate the length of the cable run from the battery you want to use to the windlass. Say its 10m by the time it goes around corners and is neat. That means total of 20m there and back.
Say you use 250A cable which is easy to get Altronics W4190A. 15.5mm OD, conductor 50sq mm. Thats close enough to 1AWG size. Its the biggest practical. 1AWG cable resistance is 0.4 ohms per 1000m.
So your total 20m circuit resistance in ohms is 20m/1000m x 0.4 ohms = 0.008 ohms.
Using ohms law (volts=amps x resistance) if your Windlass needs 200A then your voltage loss on that cable is 200 amps x 0.008 ohms which is 1.6V.
That means if you battery was at 12.6V the Windlass would be working on 11V. Depends if the Windlass is happy with that. It should say in its instruction manual. (Of course if the Windlass only needs 100A then your loss is only 0.8V etc).
If it was me I would put a 100A battery on the bow and simply connect it in parallel with the source battery via much lighter cables and a switch/circuit breaker so you can isolate it if you want.
And just to add to trek's comment, if your engine is running at reasonable revs, then voltage might be 13.0v or above (depending on revs and battery charge state) so a voltage drop may not matter so much.
Cheers
Bristol
Select to expand quoteTrek said..
If it was me I would put a 100A battery on the bow and simply connect it in parallel with the source battery via much lighter cables and a switch/circuit breaker so you can isolate it if you want.
Jeeeeez you've all got me thinking now, some varied ideas here!!!
I have already bought a new 100a 780CCA battery so I am liking your idea Trek - I already have fairly decent wiring running to the windlass.
At the moment the power is coming from the house batteries but I always have the motor running & the VSR has always kicked in linking to the start battery & alternator.
I'm gonna look into those chargers Cabron but I have 780Ah house batteries with 550w solar so may need to do some investigating. Dunno about the dual controller either!!
EDIT: I love the look of the CTEK 140A OFF ROAD system, would suit me, but I'll have to save up!!
I reckon, but still open to new ideas, I will put the new battery up the bow nice & close to the windlass with 200a cables, with my existing wiring going back to the start battery via my existing circuit breaker. The VSR should be kicked in by the time I usually use the windlass so I should be getting >13V
What got me changing stuff Shaggy was a combination of things - my batteries were down a fair way (first up in the morning), my wiring to the windlass should be heavier - I've never felt how hot they get and the anchor was stuck in mud. There was too much load, the batteries dive bombed & it tripped everything out!! I have a feeling my house bank is on the way out as well.
Thanks everyone for your ponderings, thoughts & help - what a great place this is!! 
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
I wish I understood elektricity stuff more.
Question for the more edumucated, using Lazz' example, how much current is there across theses wires if an 100A alternator is charging the house and windlass batteries as well as all the power needed for the engine and all the other stuff?
If I look at a 1000w windlass, on a 12v circuit that equates to a max of 80A.
I'm trying to work out if there is significantly less current across the wires if you set up as per Lazz's drawing.
Jode, you mention this is not a normal application of a VSR. What are VSR's normally used for?
Shaggy
We generally use VSR's for sensing low voltage eg. Cutting off power if voltage is too low to prevent further draining of the.battery and causing batteries to be damaged. They have not got the smarts in them for charging second batteries. This is where it is best to fit a dc/dc charger between the batteries which have the smarts to do the job properly and get the best out of your batteries.
ps. I am trying to keep my answer simple and not saying you can not use a vsr but you will not get the best out of your batteries. My boat actually came with A vsr on the house batteries which we removed and fitted a 120amp dc/dc charger after buggering a set of house batteries.
Lazz, it's strange the way the electrical diagnoses side of boating goes, I thought my house battery was dodgy turned out the fridge needed regassing so the compressor was running much longer than it would of ordinarily and was drawing the battery down 
was only luck that I plugged into shore power and the problem exposed it's self.
As for the windlass the worm drive on mine collapsed so now I power it with an Armstrong unit 
trek suggestion , perfect.
I would put battery on the bow, install rotating switch
1/ connected to strarter bat. / when you pull anchor
2/ connected to the house
3/ disconnect / keep fully charge as a back up
Select to expand quotewoko said..
Lazz, it's strange the way the electrical diagnoses side of boating goes, I thought my house battery was dodgy turned out the fridge needed regassing so the compressor was running much longer than it would of ordinarily and was drawing the battery down was only luck that I plugged into shore power and the problem exposed it's self.
As for the windlass the worm drive on mine collapsed so now I power it with an Armstrong unit
Funny you say that, I have just ordered some new seals for my fridge!!
I keep an eye on things with my Pi3 set up
In the first pic, showing the batteries you can see the small "dips" at night around 1800; 2100; 0100 etc with the corresponding fridge activity in the bottom pic - just seems that the fridge isn't staying cool long enough!!Select to expand quoteJode5 said..
This is where it is best to fit a dc/dc charger between the batteries which have the smarts to do the job properly and get the best out of your batteries.
Jode5 would the CTEK 140A OFF ROAD system do this or is there something better?
This is not cheap but it looks the goods .......on paper!!
Select to expand quoteLazzz said..woko said..
Lazz, it's strange the way the electrical diagnoses side of boating goes, I thought my house battery was dodgy turned out the fridge needed regassing so the compressor was running much longer than it would of ordinarily and was drawing the battery down was only luck that I plugged into shore power and the problem exposed it's self.
As for the windlass the worm drive on mine collapsed so now I power it with an Armstrong unit
Funny you say that, I have just ordered some new seals for my fridge!!
I keep an eye on things with my Pi3 set up
In the first pic, showing the batteries you can see the small "dips" at night around 1800; 2100; 0100 etc with the corresponding fridge activity in the bottom pic - just seems that the fridge isn't staying cool long enough!!
HI Lazz,
Swoon. You're using a PI as a logger!
I'm trying to use a PI3 at the moment to "scrape" the BOM wind sensor data in real time so I can compare my anemometer values to a known reference. The reason is I get a fair bit of upwash from the sailplan over the anemometer which throws out my AWA and AWS, and once these two values are out, all of your TWA, TWS, Polar performance and VMG numbers are out as well.
We've 5 x BOM wind stations in the Bay we sail near to, so it makes sense to be able to take wind readings from outside of the boat so I know what offset I need to apply. I'm currently trying to teach myself Python, it's a slow process!
How did you manage to do this? Are you using NMEA for the data, or raw measurements?
What systems are you monitoring?
Can I move in with you and sweep floors so you can teach me how you did it?
Cheers,
SB
Select to expand quoteLazzz said..Trek said..
If it was me I would put a 100A battery on the bow and simply connect it in parallel with the source battery via much lighter cables and a switch/circuit breaker so you can isolate it if you want.
Jeeeeez you've all got me thinking now, some varied ideas here!!!
I have already bought a new 100a 780CCA battery so I am liking your idea Trek - I already have fairly decent wiring running to the windlass.
At the moment the power is coming from the house batteries but I always have the motor running & the VSR has always kicked in linking to the start battery & alternator.
I'm gonna look into those chargers Cabron but I have 780Ah house batteries with 550w solar so may need to do some investigating. Dunno about the dual controller either!!
EDIT: I love the look of the CTEK 140A OFF ROAD system, would suit me, but I'll have to save up!!
I reckon, but still open to new ideas, I will put the new battery up the bow nice & close to the windlass with 200a cables, with my existing wiring going back to the start battery via my existing circuit breaker. The VSR should be kicked in by the time I usually use the windlass so I should be getting >13V
What got me changing stuff Shaggy was a combination of things - my batteries were down a fair way (first up in the morning), my wiring to the windlass should be heavier - I've never felt how hot they get and the anchor was stuck in mud. There was too much load, the batteries dive bombed & it tripped everything out!! I have a feeling my house bank is on the way out as well.
Thanks everyone for your ponderings, thoughts & help - what a great place this is!!
Yep the ctek 140a would be my next add on, however I can't find any documentation to say it can take more than 300w solar, so unless you've got a couple huge alternators, (I've only got 1x 50a), that make use of it.... it's a waste for me.
Redarc do a good solar/dc-dc/dual setup with higher amps etc, also very costly but apparently very good.
If you've got the cables there, move the battery forward, and keep connected to Starter battery, if the VSR/isolator was between them, it could work as a back up Starter. However as others have said VSR don't charge batteries well, ok in a camper van when your driving for hours at a time, and your biggest load is a fridge. Never had a 4x4 winch, so cant comment.
Get a cheaper Dc-Dc charger, maybe with inbuilt VSR so you keep the starter ok and charge those batteries properly. Note, a $20 eBay charger is probably not the solution either..
Theres many ways to get a outcome that will work, choose one that works for you....
btw, is your bow battery sealed? Would be horrible having battery acid drain through your bilge when beating upwind in short chop
was only luck that I plugged into shore power and the problem exposed it's self.
Biggest mistake I see is some just use the anchor windlass flat out draining battery's and wearing everything out. I run heavy cable from the start battery and run the mains as I'm pulling the pick and use the winch to pull the chain in until I feel it load up and then pull it up from the depths with very little load, the vsr will click in and starts to charge house after this. Your looking at 30 amp per hour and should only take a few minutes to pull the pick so your only looking at 10 amp per retrieval . Less than your bar fridge overall! Don't stress leave it as is I think.
Biggest mistake I see is some just use the anchor windlass flat out draining battery's and wearing everything out. I run heavy cable from the start battery and run the mains as I'm pulling the pick and use the winch to pull the chain in until I feel it load up and then pull it up from the depths with very little load, the vsr will click in and starts to charge house after this. Your looking at 30 amp per hour and should only take a few minutes to pull the pick so your only looking at 10 amp per retrieval . Less than your bar fridge overall! Don't stress leave it as is I think.
- Jode5 doesn't 
I have sent CTEK an email with my specs.
I only went Ctek cause it's all I needed and got the Charger for just under $300 new, with a free cooler bag!!! Haha. Didn't think the smartpass was so much. Better than Yum Cha brands, but not as expensive as the Highend stuff I didn't need.
Sterling looks great, but how available are they?? I only checked quickly.
Enerdrive also looks good, thought it charged start after house full???? Again, quick glance.
Redarc does Solar and higher voltage solar than Ctex, but not sure what solar Wattage limit, they normally answer emails quickly..... note Ctex never answered my email. Your link clearly says unregulated Solar input
Or.... Do separate Solar, and separate Dc-Dc.....or get bigger cables to run to the bow and treat it as a 2 Starter setup...???
I wouldn't pay $1300 for Ctex after reading the others, but I like my little charger for $350 with Circuit breakers installed. Ply mount fitted the vent hole I cut in new washboard perfectly!!! Gotta love when a plan works out.
Make a educated choice, and be happy with your outcome, and don't over capitalise like we all keep telling ourselves but seem to ignore.
Lazz, did you look into Twohulls suggestion ofthe duo controller?
I think that could be set up to work.
All modern alternators have build in very good battery charger,
solar regulator is in fact good charger too.
You don't need another so call DC- DC charger, it's in fact
very expensive electronic switch , selecting between two inputs.
And on top of it , they limit current, you need every bit of current
to charge battery/ es, not to limit .
Priority is charge the house battery, than through VSR overflow
current to charge winch battery.
What I alway recommend is build in digital panel voltmeter
with switch selector to monitor individual batteries.
Lazz,
Someone may have suggested this as I haven't read all the replys so here's my bit, this is not the only way to do it, its just another way.
Leave everything as is, leave the existing VSR switching between start & house batteries, the alternator regulator is controlling the charge to the battery selected by the VSR and from what you have written I dont think you have any issues with that side of your system.
I would install a DC to DC charger adjacent to the new windless battery. I would even go as far as using the existing cables that run form the start battery. Why? they're there, use them. I'm a lazy electrician. But would give strong consideration of moving them to the house battery, just to protect the start battery from current draw when engine is not running. A DC to DC charger will continue to draw current until the windless battery is fully charged.
Why this way? The DC to DC charger will charge you windless battery correctly, get a 3 or 5 stage charger. You only use the windless once a day, maybe??? So there's plenty of time to refill the windless battery so long as you have some spare supply for it, excess solar or wind. Perhaps this way may be cheaper. If you hadn't purchased the new battery I would have suggested just paralleling up the cables to the windless.
Sometimes I think we (yachties) overthink things , God I know I do. Its a boat, keep it simple I have to constantly tell myself.
All jokes aside, Fuses Circuit breakers, use them. Anything cable hooked up to a battery needs to be protected with the right sized fuse as close as possible to the battery.
Mike
Select to expand quoteBlueMoon said..
Lazz, did you look into Twohulls suggestion ofthe duo controller?
I think that could be set up to work.
I certainly did.
These would be ideal for a smaller setup but the 20a is only good for less than 270w solar input. I also prefer the mppt over the pwm controllers.
Thanks for your ideas Mike, I'm giving all these ideas a bit of thought!! I still don't know which way I'm going to go just yet.
I have circuit breakers on everything - is there such a thing as too many?? I have spares as well.
I think I would like a good DC2DC controller/charger for my house batteries though, just to make sure they are OK - modern technology!!
I will not be using another VSR as per my original idea thanks to all the above.
I ordered a new battery from Battery World on Monday but still haven't heard from them to pick it up. If I don't have to pay for that I will get some good heavy cables & run from my start battery to the windlass - if I have to pay for the new battery I will install it at the windlass & use my existing wires to link to my start battery to keep it charged. I just can't warrant & new battery and new HD cabling - the Admiral doesn't go much for this stuff 
.
I have my house & start batteries linked via a switch if I had a flat start battery or I needed to add a bit to my house - haven't used it yet though.
As I posted above, the windlass is is powered from the house bank - which has it's drawbacks so I will be changing that to the start battery.
Thanks again for all the help,
"Overthinker" Laz
Just as a quick update:
I ended up getting 25mts of 70mm2 cable to run from the start battery to the windlass - compared to what I have at the moment this will be a huge improvement.
Thanks to all the talk about smart charging etc I ended up getting the REDARC BCDC1250D In-vehicle Battery Charger which will handle my solar input, the alternator & look after the start & house batteries.
www.redarc.com.au/dual-input-50a-in-vehicle-dc-battery-charger
Thanks to all for the input :)
