Knowing there are some very experienced sailors on this forum I thought I would start a thread on storm sails .
After reading the Pardy's book storm tactics I have always wanted to put a trisail into the sail wardrobe.
but just recently I have come across two articles from two very experienced sailors saying that a triple reefed and even a fourth reef main is so much easier to put in than the difficult and rarely used trisail.
is it unseaman like to not use the trisail ? advantages or non advantages,thoughts please.
my next question is a rigging one ,does a storm jib used alone put more stress on the rigging compared to a reefed mainsail supported by the stays close to the mast ?
An article I wrote a while back.
unless you have your trysail set up properly and easy to deploy, go with the 4th reef.
bullsails.blogspot.com/2012/12/storm-sails.html
Select to expand quoteGalatea said..
An article I wrote a while back.
unless you have your trysail set up properly and easy to deploy, go with the 4th reef.
bullsails.blogspot.com/2012/12/storm-sails.html
This is interesting thank you , this comment that I stole from your article has always been a worry on the stress of the rig when only using the Storm jib.
,
"I have seen boats with just a headsail set break their mast as the gust strikes and with all the sail area on the forestay it sags under the load and twists the rig snapping it."
Seen it first hand, alongside a 38' boat with fractional rig with swept back spreaders and no babystay or forward lowers.
We were waving and pointing and they were waving back
I guess the main thing is redundancy. Pull the headboard out of your main or rip it high up and that's it. If I was doing lots of miles way offshore, I'd take a trysail with a separate track for it.
Recently we went to the aid of The Maiden Factor on the way to the Abrolhos Islands. They had ripped their main and were down to a trysail and engine. Lost the engine and so only a trysail to keep them heading away from the coast until a tow arrived.
Select to expand quoteBROWNSMTRACE said..
my next question is a rigging one ,does a storm jib used alone put more stress on the rigging compared to a reefed mainsail supported by the stays close to the mast ?
My thoughts on a storm jib on a conventional sloop rig (i.e. no inner stay) are that if the storm jib has a dyneema or spectra luff, your spinnaker pole topping lift is also spectra and exits the mast ,say on a single spreader rig just below the spreader AND you have a suitable strong point on the deck for the tack, you should have a very good set up. The great benefit of this is being able to shift the centre of effort of the sail back towards the mast instead of having it right out on the bow.
It may pay to have a downhaul line attached to the head for better control when dousing the sail.
I believe this combined with a full reefed main or a storm tri will give a balanced sail configuration that should handle some very heavy conditions.
Will be good to hear other comments/opinions on this.
Unless your a fully crewed race boat then I would (and have) gone for a 4th reef.
Check out Skip Novak's blog www.yachtingworld.com/video/skip-novak-storm-sailing-part-3-using-storm-sails-517
Plus I would take Galatea's opinion as well.
Really hard to get enough tension on it.
I have seen a lot of people try this and not many succeed, luff sag is a problem without a stay.
no matter how tight you can get it, it will still sag a lot in 30-40 knots.
purchase on deck or high field lever or similar required.
plus lot of load on the halyard sheave.
@ Galatea, with the sleeved storm jib, how do you deal with the sheets on the furled head sail??
Run the sheets down and out of the bottom of sleeve. The storm jib sleeve will stop sail unfurling when in use.
Possibly a good idea to wrap a sail tie around furled sail as you fit storm jib?
I would have thought that a storm jib set on a forestay on a masthead rig would put less stress on the overall rig than a deep reefed main.
Load from the jib is being opposed by the backstay.
A deep reef main technically needs an innerstay to oppose it just like a staysail or a storm jib set on an innerstay,technically needs runners.
All depends on what type of rig you have
Years ago we were working into a 30kn southerly in a race & we blew our mainsail out.
While most of the crew including me were packing up the left over bits of the main and lamenting the end of our race, an old bloke draged the trisail out & told us to get going with that. It worked great & we sailed the last 50 miles of the race. Our biggest problem was padding & tying the 6m long boom down on the deck because the pumping of the rig was causing the end of the boom to grind a hole through the deck. The the other thing is even in 30kn it required most of the crew to hoist he trisail.
I mostly sail short handed now & I use a main with 4 reefs. A few years ago in a short handed race we sailed through a storm. The breeze built to 40kn so we changed to storm jib on inner forstay & tucked the forth reef in the main, it was easy to do & worked well. Once the breeze got to 50kn we dropped the jib (with some difficulty). When the breeze got to 60kn we needed to pull the main down and go bare poles , but with the breeze and sea state we were unable to ( we sailed like this for another 36hrs)
So in my opinion, fourth reef in mains works well. Having a tri sail as a back up is a good idea ( even better with its own dedicated sail track beside the main sail track). Think about how you will handle the sails considering that. when it really goes to ** you have a refuced ability change the sail plan.
Select to expand quoteGalatea said..
An article I wrote a while back.
unless you have your trysail set up properly and easy to deploy, go with the 4th reef.
bullsails.blogspot.com/2012/12/storm-sails.html
Some good points in that article.
I know we can drive well to windward when the breeze is well into the frightening side of fresh under a 3rd (very deep) reef and #5 headsail, although the boat is enjoying it more than we are. Changing to a trysail at that point is risky to the crew, but we're talking over 50kn by then (demonstrated in the 2004 Hobart). Merely dropping what little main there is and getting that under control is enough, let alone trying to get a trysail up on deck and rigged. Contrast that though to a newer, lighter design that is fully powered up in 12kn (eg Beneteau 40); they'll be changing to a trysail a lot earlier.
I run an inner forestay for the storm jib; as the sail sizes go down the effective sail plan moves forward so moving back to the inner forestay balances the boat a little, and I can tension the luff as necessary. I do know that we need something up though regardless of the conditions, otherwise you can't steer out of the way of a breaking wave or other danger. But every boat is different.
Trouble is that when the mains down it is down for good unless you have a professional crew who are supermen and don't mind turning the boat round into hell ...
that main could save your boat on a lee shore not being able to get it back up would be a nightmare.
isnt there an advantage to having the storm jib on the bow for its effort of pulling the boat ?
Select to expand quotecisco said..BROWNSMTRACE said..
my next question is a rigging one ,does a storm jib used alone put more stress on the rigging compared to a reefed mainsail supported by the stays close to the mast ?
My thoughts on a storm jib on a conventional sloop rig (i.e. no inner stay) are that if the storm jib has a dyneema or spectra luff, your spinnaker pole topping lift is also spectra and exits the mast ,say on a single spreader rig just below the spreader AND you have a suitable strong point on the deck for the tack, you should have a very good set up. The great benefit of this is being able to shift the centre of effort of the sail back towards the mast instead of having it right out on the bow.
It may pay to have a downhaul line attached to the head for better control when dousing the sail.
I believe this combined with a full reefed main or a storm tri will give a balanced sail configuration that should handle some very heavy conditions.
Will be good to hear other comments/opinions on this.
With dynema being used for rigging why couldn't you use this idea and attach a highfield lever ???
Select to expand quoteGalatea said..
An article I wrote a while back.
unless you have your trysail set up properly and easy to deploy, go with the 4th reef.
bullsails.blogspot.com/2012/12/storm-sails.html
Nice article, thanks Galatea! Select to expand quoteBROWNSMTRACE said..
my next question is a rigging one ,does a storm jib used alone put more stress on the rigging compared to a reefed mainsail supported by the stays close to the mast ?
IMHO, yes.
I don't have a backstay or runners, so I'm more focused/aware of forestay curve than most boats.
The effect on my mast in big winds is definitely more pronounced from a forestay attached sail than a deep reefed main.
Edit: Come to think of it, the effect from a lazily furled headsail is nothing to sneeze at either, that sleeve idea is quite smart from a safety aspect alone!
Select to expand quoteJolene said..
All depends on what type of rig you have
Absolutely.
Thank you -all
geez i love this forum - this is what it's all about - sharing expertise/ opinion / experience - saving lives
Select to expand quotesydchris said..Galatea said..
An article I wrote a while back.
unless you have your trysail set up properly and easy to deploy, go with the 4th reef.
bullsails.blogspot.com/2012/12/storm-sails.html
Some good points in that article.
I know we can drive well to windward when the breeze is well into the frightening side of fresh under a 3rd (very deep) reef and #5 headsail, although the boat is enjoying it more than we are. Changing to a trysail at that point is risky to the crew, but we're talking over 50kn by then (demonstrated in the 2004 Hobart). Merely dropping what little main there is and getting that under control is enough, let alone trying to get a trysail up on deck and rigged. Contrast that though to a newer, lighter design that is fully powered up in 12kn (eg Beneteau 40); they'll be changing to a trysail a lot earlier.
I run an inner forestay for the storm jib; as the sail sizes go down the effective sail plan moves forward so moving back to the inner forestay balances the boat a little, and I can tension the luff as necessary. I do know that we need something up though regardless of the conditions, otherwise you can't steer out of the way of a breaking wave or other danger. But every boat is different.
I sailed quite a bit on a very competitive Bene 40 and we barely ever reefed at all. We had one reef and a #4 in 40 knots upwind and were comfortable (relatively), but feathering a bit. second reef would have been easy if it got up a bit more and manageable until mybe 45-50 but we never saw that much.
Always thought the main has a dampening effect on the loads imposed by a head sail. Knew plenty of cruises that would say how good their boat would go, even to windward , on headsail alone. When you see the boat pitching and crashing off short sharp seas like you often get inshore off Fremantle, it makes you think it's just a matter of time till something let's go. Plus a swag of other reasons, how do you round up for instance?
Select to expand quoteSRrat said..
Always thought the main has a dampening effect on the loads imposed by a head sail. Knew plenty of cruises that would say how good their boat would go, even to windward , on headsail alone. When you see the boat pitching and crashing off short sharp seas like you often get inshore off Fremantle, it makes you think it's just a matter of time till something let's go. Plus a swag of other reasons, how do you round up for instance?
When sailing dinghies from a lee shore you would never get off the beach using a headsail.
A trisail is a very handy option on a cruising boat. It isn't all about using it because the wind is too strong for a reefed main but as an emergency alternative to a main.
In 2014 we broke the boom off at the goose neck with a stupid (on my part) gybe in very strong winds and very high seas. We were about 15-20nm souwest of Lord Howe Island.
We got into Lord Howe on the headsail and then rigged the trisail for the trip home. We sailed home very well indeed with little speed lost.
Without a boom a main is useless.
Ok, my thoughts on the subject.
Firstly I always think the standard reefing line setup doesn't pull the foot of the sail tight enough. Saw a world cruiser recently who had setup dyneema strops from the back of the boom to each reef line (where it went around the boom) which tightened the foot, the leach can be tightened with the main sheet.
On inner forestays (IFS), if you do them out of dyneema you need more than a highfield to tighten as the dyneema will shrink when stored and you'll never get it tight again.
A small purchase with the tail run to the capstan on the anchor winch or or back to a winch will be needed.
Now my ideal setup would be a Genoa on a furler then 2-3 sails of different sizes on endless furlers that your hoist as IFS like open 60's do. These would go on a halyard lock at their mast entry point and have tensioning system at the tack.
The main would have 3 reefs with the 3rd being deep.
7/8 rig with twin swept spreaders but still runners for the IFS when its blowing
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..
A trisail is a very handy option on a cruising boat. It isn't all about using it because the wind is too strong for a reefed main but as an emergency alternative to a main.
In 2014 we broke the boom off at the goose neck with a stupid (on my part) gybe in very strong winds and very high seas. We were about 15-20nm souwest of Lord Howe Island.
We got into Lord Howe on the headsail and then rigged the trisail for the trip home. We sailed home very well indeed with little speed lost.
Without a boom a main is useless.
Morning bird I was sailing up north when to my surprise the boom snapped in half, I thought what do I do now and tried the main sheet to the clew and got very good results sailing like that could put lots of shape in it was powerful , I suppose a bit like a Wharram cat set up .
By the way I love your video on your sail to Lord Howe I watch it regularly ??
Select to expand quoterumblefish said..
Ok, my thoughts on the subject.
Firstly I always think the standard reefing line setup doesn't pull the foot of the sail tight enough. Saw a world cruiser recently who had setup dyneema strops from the back of the boom to each reef line (where it went around the boom) which tightened the foot, the leach can be tightened with the main sheet.
On inner forestays (IFS), if you do them out of dyneema you need more than a highfield to tighten as the dyneema will shrink when stored and you'll never get it tight again.
A small purchase with the tail run to the capstan on the anchor winch or or back to a winch will be needed.
Now my ideal setup would be a Genoa on a furler then 2-3 sails of different sizes on endless furlers that your hoist as IFS like open 60's do. These would go on a halyard lock at their mast entry point and have tensioning system at the tack.
The main would have 3 reefs with the 3rd being deep.
7/8 rig with twin swept spreaders but still runners for the IFS when its blowing
Agree with you on the endless furler setup. I have my storm jib and #4 staysail on endless furler. Usually leave the staysail hoisted ready to peploy as required. If expecting to use the stormjib then try to make the change early so not on the foredeck in 40 knots wrestling the furled sail. It is possibly to make the sailchange through the forward hatch while standing on the shower seat/ toilet but it does mean that the forward hatch is open in a seaway. The staysail is very high aspect and requires extreme care and good technique to avoid a furling override and major cluster****.
Have two reefs which in reality is a 1.5 and 3 reef good for above 25 knots apparent and 35 apparent respectively. Can comfortably put the reef in at 35 knots singlehanded. Ie system has been modified and practiced with marks on the halyards and reefing lines etc. I always reef on starboard tack because of location of halyard on cockpit and a short tether jack line that I have setup on the starboard ( Windward) cabin top. The tail of the mainhalyard is lead back through the deck organiser and jammer to the second reef luff eye. From the cockpit on short tether can lower halyard to appropriate mark and pull sail down and jamb with tail. Take up slack on reef line on port winch, move forward and secure tack. I have a Dyneema strop fixed to port gooseneck reefing eye which is passed through the reefing eye , around the mast, back through the eye and snapshackled to the starboard gooseneck eye. The strop is long enough to allow the eye to sit on top of the car stack. When the halyard is tensioned the choke around the mast holds the reef tack nice and close to the mast and allows good luff tension. Adequate foot tension can be obtained by cranking on the reef line. A good lazyjack bag elimates the need for reef ties and the reef lines are run on opposites sides to the boom which adds to the restraint of the sailfoot. Will sometimes throw a sailtie around the foot at the reef clew for added tidiness. Have only ever used a trisail once in anger because of a failure in the second reef system. It took four experienced and strong crew to about an hour (in 50 Knots) to sort out the trisail. Don't think I could do it solo and would be a struggle shorthanded.
The big hole in a 2 very deep reef setup is the most common sailing breeze between 20 to 25 knots apparent. Am either overpowered or grossly underpowered. Will get three reefs in next main.
Select to expand quoteBROWNSMTRACE said..MorningBird said..
A trisail is a very handy option on a cruising boat. It isn't all about using it because the wind is too strong for a reefed main but as an emergency alternative to a main.
In 2014 we broke the boom off at the goose neck with a stupid (on my part) gybe in very strong winds and very high seas. We were about 15-20nm souwest of Lord Howe Island.
We got into Lord Howe on the headsail and then rigged the trisail for the trip home. We sailed home very well indeed with little speed lost.
Without a boom a main is useless.
Morning bird I was sailing up north when to my surprise the boom snapped in half, I thought what do I do now and tried the main sheet to the clew and got very good results sailing like that could put lots of shape in it was powerful , I suppose a bit like a Wharram cat set up .
By the way I love your video on your sail to Lord Howe I watch it regularly ??
Glad you enjoyed the video. DrRog did it. I get seasick watching it but it was a great trip.
Yep, I considered using the main as a trisail but I couldn't get the sheet far enough aft on MB to make it work nor could i reef it, essential on a 400nm passage.
