Forums > Windsurfing   Gps and Speed talk

Weed Fins

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Created by seahorse > 9 months ago, 2 Aug 2010
seahorse
QLD, 133 posts
12 Aug 2010 1:39PM
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Wanted to thank all for their contributions to this topic. Fantastic wealth of knowledge. Looks like I've found a use for those Drake fins sitting in the Garage...
Many Thanks

icesurf
QLD, 113 posts
13 Aug 2010 8:57AM
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tim90 said...
Would be interesting to be able to compare the HPR5 base quality to that of a urethane resin like Slowie uses on his carbon fins.


The Urethane Fin Base system is easier to use than HPR5 & likely better, specially for production purposes.

HPR5 epoxy is softer than the Urethane system, however the mechanical properties of the HPR5 fin base can be modified, the quanitity of graphite/ calcite added to HPR5 tends to govern the finished fin base hardness.


HPR5 is hard to work with, requires heat to make it pourable & to allow the air bubbles to escape. Our fin base molds are heavy steel which are pre heated allowing all air to be removed without using a vacum process.

Also I would advise not to use chopstrand or fibers in the fin base, thus only traps air.








Fredstyles
85 posts
13 Aug 2010 8:06AM
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Can somebody recommend a urethane system with no shrinkage problems

slowboat
WA, 560 posts
13 Aug 2010 3:57PM
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Ian K said...


Shifting the gravity countering component off the board onto the more efficient fin is also a win.

light wind fins use this. they bend to windward under load. Formula fins for light wind use 45 deg bias carbon to minimise the twist but allow the fin to bend. They do this when theres not enough apparent wind strength to use vertical aerodynamic lift sources- eg gliding through lulls.

Ian K said...


Why do we rail the board to leeward when going for max efficiency?


Rolling the board to leeward increases the aerodynamic angle of attack of the board, which increases the nose lift causing it to pitch upwards. Overall this is quite unstable especially in chop, and it creates an easy opportunity for ventilating the low pressure side of the fin when going through chop. The feeling of rolling the board to leeward is more about reducing the vertical force applied to the board and taking the weight with the rig. The board itself is not actually railed over much. No I'm not talking about 30m long old skool raceboards that are not planing.

Ian K said...


It's the fin that is working better not the hull. If we could keep the board flat while doing this it'd be even better. We could mount a treadle under the front footstrap to control fin angle. If it all got a bit flighty drop the heel to bring the fin back to 90 and it'd all settle down.


The sail is running much higher L/D than the fin due to the higher lift coefficient (from higher AOA). Compare that to ~1 degree for a symmetric fin. Using the fin to generate hydrodynamic lift is better than using the board, but the aerodynamic lift from the board and the sail are even more efficient. Remember the board is running in ground effect with the surface sitting several degrees higher than the trim angle (due to the rocker). We need this aerodynamic lift to counterbalance the pitching moment from the rig. Ever tried sailing a board thats snapped in front of the mast track?

Also, hydrodynamic drag is working directly against the direction of travel. Perfectly coupled to have maximum impact on our efficiency. Aerodynamic drag is works in the direction of the apparent wind, and if we are sailing forwards the total aerodynamic forces (WRT the axis of travel) can only be resolved as sideways and forwards. Aerodynamic drag therefore serves to increase side load whilst eroding thrust, which wastes our limited ability to generate moment.

The optimum setup has minimum vertical hydrodynamic lift (and therefore drag), maximum forward force =>apparent wind more from the side=>going downwind, maximising use of our available leverage: high sail AOA for max L/D and highest coupling of sail moment to forward force, and also minimal side load which creates fin load which (unless in the drag bucket) increases drag which difrectly slows us down.

It may seem strange but all of the actual drag working against the direction of travel is produced by the parts in the water. The importance of aerodynamic efficiency comes in minimising the lift requirements on the hydrodynamic lifting surfaces since lift=> drag.

Sorry for going OT.

Fred, I've tried several urethane systems and they all shrink to a degree. I overpour the mould by the shrinkage amount to compensate, and then trim off the sides with a knife. I also use vacuum degassing. Some of the urethanes are very flexible so I use chopped glass mat on them. The main issue I have with urethane is the curing schedule. It varies a lot between formulations, so you have to be careful to get it right. Rubberised epoxy is probably the way to go but I havent used it yet.

Ian K
WA, 4120 posts
13 Aug 2010 5:41PM
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.

Ian K said...


It's the fin that is working better not the hull.


Thanks Slowboat, good points

Yes, maybe I should have phrased that above quote as a question .. Is it the fin?

So it looks like formula boards have acknowledged the advantage of bending fins away from 90. However the effect is lessened when underpowered just when you might want it most. The opposite of what you might need for a control/efficiency compromise.

A solid fin with a hinged articulation might have some advantages. A bent foil can't be as efficient as a straight one.

But back on topic, which I think was what to do with the box of unused fins we all have in the garage?

Before I turn it into a weed fin I've found a very stiff 35cm tekkno sport (trim box!) which I'll try to modify so it fits into a tuttle at 15 degrees off vertical. Just as a proof of concept, non- adjustable.

15 degrees should be enough to see an effect.

If a vertical fin is normally operating with say 20 kg of side load, then for the same sailing configuration a fin inclined at 15 degrees (75 deg from vertical) will need to generate 20.7 kg of lift in the new direction. ie it won't have to work much harder.

the maths...

20.7 cos 15 = 20 kg so the lateral force satisfies the sailing condition

20.7 sin 15 = 5.4 kg That's in the vertical direction so should relieve the hull of a fair bit of work.

On the other tack the fin will suck the board down by 5.4 kg so hopefully it should be sluggish. I'm a bit of a heavy foot but even I hope to tell the difference. What do you reckon?

I'll let you know how it goes.











fullmoon
WA, 314 posts
13 Aug 2010 7:23PM
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Please keep it going guys. I'm so far out of my depth here it doesn't really matter but it is really interesting. Thank god for clever people or we would all be sailing downwind.

Bender
WA, 2226 posts
13 Aug 2010 7:52PM
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fullmoon said...

Please keep it going guys. I'm so far out of my depth here it doesn't really matter but it is really interesting. Thank god for clever people or we would all be sailing downwind.


Finally a response to this thread that has not gone straight over my head, Well said Fullmoon, same here learning heaps from the wise ones out there pontificating in this thread



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"Weed Fins" started by seahorse