What makes a small slalom / large speed board (around 80 l) fast? I assume that will depend on conditions and rider skills, so let me specify. Conditions are typically mild chop (10 cm - 30 cm; a bit more than the middle of Lake George on a high water "choppy" day), with occasional stretches of flatter stretches behind sand bars etc. But control in more chop is also important, since reaching the flats may require sailing through a km of ~50 cm chop. Weed fins are typically required, sometimes delta fins due to heavy weed and shallow water. Sailor skills are mediocre or a bit better (40 knots remains a dream).
Small slalom and speed boards are hard to get and impossible to try here in the US. Rather than ordering one blind for $3K and maybe getting it many months later, I'm starting to think about building one. It would be used by me (~90 kg) in stronger wind, and my wife in lighter wind. Currently, we both love an old Isonic W54. Also have an old RRD 90 that's easy to sail, but noticeably slower than our Falcon 89.
Hi Peter, just so happens I have a Patrik Speed 53 @ 81 lt just sitting here doing nothing. It's like new, with bag and MXR fin if you're interested. Located in Corpus. Also have a Falcon 90 sitting here doing nothing.
It all depends on the wind/ water conditions and skill. If the wind is gusty a small slalomboard will be faster due to the benefit of extra volume. This makes it easier to get up to speed and maintain speed on the half wind reach leading up to your speed run. Also the wider tail gives the board a more planted/ stable feel if the first part of your slingshot going into your run has chop.
If you've got a more constant wind and have the skills then a medium speedboard like a PD 53 or a JP 54 can keep up with a small slalomboard on the half wind reach. The added benefit is that it will accelerate a lot faster going into your run. But do keep in mind that it takes a bit more confidence going into a run with a speedboard when it's choppy. If you're not that skilled they might feel slightly out of control.
Seeing you allready have a W54 a PD 53 or JP 54 won't make a difference. There hasn't been that much development in mid size speedboards. The JP 54 is exactly the same shape as it was 11 years ago when it first hit the market. PD 53 is a bit newer, 2012 or 2013 if I'm right, but also hasn't changed. It's an evolution of the 2007 F2 SX XS which was also designed by PD. The only difference might be how the board feels. But seeing you allready love the W54 upgrading to another midsize speedboard won't make a difference. The same with your slalomboards. You perfer the Falcon over the RRD.
In the end it all comes down to rider skill. Getting familiar with a board. Reading the conditions and tuning your material to these conditions. You can gain a lot with a different fin, changing your sail trim, changing footstrap/ mastbase position.
Thanks for the response. The issue is that we actually need two speed boards, so my wife and I can use one at the same time. We both like the W54, so that's a reference point. I would not mind a few extra liters of volume in a similar width. I'd sometimes like to use something smaller than a 90 l slalom board at spots where the wind can drop quickly, and the 72 l board can make getting back home a bit hard for my 90+ kg when that happens.
There's a good chance that I'll end up building a board. The PD53 is a few thousand miles from where we are right now, and it might not be available anymore by the time we get to Texas. Even if it is, the asking price is about 3x higher than the cost of building a board from scratch, which could be a fun project for the summer. So any tips and insights for building a "large" speed board will be appreciated. Maybe I should rephrase the question - starting with a decent board shape (the W54), how would you modify it to add a few more liters, and perhaps a bit more control on choppy conditions, without loosing top end speed?
You know the answer.....
Bit more V from tail to front foot, more forward from there.
Keep hard tail rail edges, but start to soften them sooner, like between feet.
Basically, build a small Tabou Rocket.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
You know the answer.....
Bit more V from tail to front foot, more forward from there.
Keep hard tail rail edges, but start to soften them sooner, like between feet.
Basically, build a small Tabou Rocket.
If I'd know the answer, I would not ask. But the increasing V from the tail makes sense.
Looking at top speed when not fully flying the fin, a double concave shape in front should be faster than a V. From how Patrik Diethelm describes the speed bottom shapes, he pretty much has a V in the middle, but flat sides, at the front. The effect should be a bit less "sucking down" of the board due to less upward momentum from the displaced water.
Softening the rails between the feet seems like a sure recipe to make a board slower. The Tabou Rocket is a great board, especially in larger chop (it was my go-to board in Cabarete a number of years back), but I'm looking for something that's a bit faster in relatively flat conditions.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
Thanks for the response. The issue is that we actually need two speed boards, so my wife and I can use one at the same time. We both like the W54, so that's a reference point. I would not mind a few extra liters of volume in a similar width. I'd sometimes like to use something smaller than a 90 l slalom board at spots where the wind can drop quickly, and the 72 l board can make getting back home a bit hard for my 90+ kg when that happens.
There's a good chance that I'll end up building a board. The PD53 is a few thousand miles from where we are right now, and it might not be available anymore by the time we get to Texas. Even if it is, the asking price is about 3x higher than the cost of building a board from scratch, which could be a fun project for the summer. So any tips and insights for building a "large" speed board will be appreciated. Maybe I should rephrase the question - starting with a decent board shape (the W54), how would you modify it to add a few more liters, and perhaps a bit more control on choppy conditions, without loosing top end speed?
Copy a Lockwood designed Mistral 95 Speed. It's 2.53m long, 55cm wide and 95 litres. It's a proven 40Kt+ board, ask Hardie. It points well and is relatively easy to gybe. It has enough volume to get you home if the wind drops. It can also easily carry a 7m sail, but still feels great with a 5.4m. I regret selling mine to Waricle. Ask him to measure it up for you in terms of width, rocker and bottom shape at each 100mm of length eg concaves, vee, champhered rails etc.
You both like the W54 and you want to make something? Copy that and don't try to change too much else you will never know what was good or bad changes. So:
Volume - have it 10mm thicker underfoot to about 5mm thicker in front half. About 6mm wider is easy (trace same outline but you're adding 3mm corecell each side)
Control:
Bit extra vee at front with side flats and slight double concave- about 1.5 - 2mm
Then she gets to keep the W54
Select to expand quoteTheTank said..
It all depends on the wind/ water conditions and skill. If the wind is gusty a small slalomboard will be faster due to the benefit of extra volume. This makes it easier to get up to speed and maintain speed on the half wind reach leading up to your speed run. Also the wider tail gives the board a more planted/ stable feel if the first part of your slingshot going into your run has chop.
If you've got a more constant wind and have the skills then a medium speedboard like a PD 53 or a JP 54 can keep up with a small slalomboard on the half wind reach. The added benefit is that it will accelerate a lot faster going into your run. But do keep in mind that it takes a bit more confidence going into a run with a speedboard when it's choppy. If you're not that skilled they might feel slightly out of control.
Seeing you allready have a W54 a PD 53 or JP 54 won't make a difference. There hasn't been that much development in mid size speedboards. The JP 54 is exactly the same shape as it was 11 years ago when it first hit the market. PD 53 is a bit newer, 2012 or 2013 if I'm right, but also hasn't changed. It's an evolution of the 2007 F2 SX XS which was also designed by PD. The only difference might be how the board feels. But seeing you allready love the W54 upgrading to another midsize speedboard won't make a difference. The same with your slalomboards. You perfer the Falcon over the RRD.
In the end it all comes down to rider skill. Getting familiar with a board. Reading the conditions and tuning your material to these conditions. You can gain a lot with a different fin, changing your sail trim, changing footstrap/ mastbase position.
Have to agree with the Tank, not much has changed on the mid size speedboards in the last decade. I have the Mistral 95 Speed but in the Gorge chop it's a tricky thing to ride. Fastest anywhere in the Gorge for me is a Naish SP80 slalom board, happily pulls 37 knots in the middle of the river and then on a proper speed course it will hit 42 knots with ease. Also have my fastest alpha at around 27 knots on it. Amazing board so when my first one wore out I had the original shaper Richard Greene make me another one. Jibes like a dream in chop and sweet to ride in the nasty stuff, it's just so comfortable in anything. It's big brother the SP95 is my all round board for 7.0 and 6.4 days, that will also pull 37s out in the middle of the river, my other favorite board and so easy to ride. Funny thing is they were both designed 15 years ago in 2006, speed is ageless...bit like me!
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..
Copy a Lockwood designed Mistral 95 Speed. It's 2.53m long, 55cm wide and 95 litres. It's a proven 40Kt+ board, ask Hardie. It points well and is relatively easy to gybe. It has enough volume to get you home if the wind drops. It can also easily carry a 7m sail, but still feels great with a 5.4m. I regret selling mine to Waricle. Ask him to measure it up for you in terms of width, rocker and bottom shape at each 100mm of length eg concaves, vee, champhered rails etc.
Thanks for the suggestion. Pretty impressive that Hardie set his PB of almost 42 knots on a Mistral 95, beating the likes of Sammy, Stretch, and Jonski on smaller boards by a couple of knots!
I vaguely recalled that the Lockwood designed Mistrals had more volume than other speed boards, but did not realize they were longer and narrower than others. Interesting to see that both PD and CL seem to regard the thin tail and double concaves as important design elements. It would indeed be cool to get at least some of the measurements, in particular about the amount of V and concaves, and the rocker line.
I had thought about taking the W54 as a starting point, and stretching it a bit to get extra volume. Seeing that the Mistral is 23 cm longer than the W54, there seems to be a bit of room for that. I definitely have a preference for longer boards (even when foiling). Not sure I need the full 54.5 or 55 cm of width, though. Maybe more something like 52 or 53 cm wide, 245 cm long, for mostly 6.3 m days and some 7.0 days. Days for smaller sails where I want to be on speed gear are quite rare, maybe 2 a year.
Easy to make a faster board....very hard to make a fast board matched for the rider skills.
YOU said you wanted easier in chop.
Beware of what you wish for.
