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sail size vers speed

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Created by Bender > 9 months ago, 21 Jun 2009
Bender
WA, 2226 posts
21 Jun 2009 8:38PM
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I have been pondering this for awhile now. I seem to be able to sail faster on bigger sized sails than on smaller ones.

Yesterday was a prime example where i was fully powered (but comfy) on 7.2m RSR and in the nasy chop at hardies i was getting 33's and 34's. keen to go faster i switched to a 6.2m RS6 (i could have easily sailed on my 5.4m RSSMKII). The wind was in the 20-30knt range as per BOM readings. On the 6.2m i could only match the speeds got on my 7.2m.

NOTE- the boards used were a Iso86/34GW and a small 48cm wide F2 missile/26F1


I have always believed that going fast really broad is all about the biggest sail possible for the conditions on the smallest board.

My question is at what time/rate of Knots does carrying a bigger sail make you go slower

Speed experts your input here would be very much appreciated.

grumplestiltskin
WA, 2331 posts
22 Jun 2009 9:18AM
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I would have thought that


over powered (but comfy)

was a contradiction of terms. How can you be overpowered but comfy?

It also basically answers your own question. If you are still comfy then the sail is not too big.

Bender
WA, 2226 posts
22 Jun 2009 9:25AM
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grumplestiltskin said...

I would have thought that

over powered (but comfy)

was a contradiction of terms. How can you be overpowered but comfy?

It also basically answers your own question. If you are still comfy then the sail is not too big.



Well spotted Grumps. I have edited my ramblings to Fully powered up( but comfy).

keef
NSW, 2016 posts
22 Jun 2009 12:26PM
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Bender said...



NOTE- the boards used were a Iso86/34GW and a small 48cm wide F2 missile/26F1
Speed experts your input here would be very much appreciated.
i'm not an expert bender and i'm not familiar with your boards or your fins,if the 34wg&26F1 are the fin's, that's a big difference,i'm reading between the lines here, so you used the 7.2m with the iso86/34 and the 6.2m with the F2 missile/26F1 and you was doing the same speed on both boards





Bender
WA, 2226 posts
22 Jun 2009 10:46AM
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keef said...

Bender said...



NOTE- the boards used were a Iso86/34GW and a small 48cm wide F2 missile/26F1
Speed experts your input here would be very much appreciated.
i'm not an expert bender and i'm not familiar with your boards or your fins,if the 34wg&26F1 are the fin's, that's a big difference,i'm reading between the lines here, so you used the 7.2m with the iso86/34 and the 6.2m with the F2 missile/26F1 and you was doing the same speed on both boards




Yep with the iso i used a techonic 34cm Goldwing and the missile a Techtonic Falcon 26cm.

i sailed the iso with the 7.2 and 6.2 and the missile with the both sails as well.

All set ups got the same speeds, thats why i am asking for advice.

keef
NSW, 2016 posts
22 Jun 2009 4:03PM
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Bender said...

I have been pondering this for awhile now. I seem to be able to sail faster on bigger sized sails than on smaller ones.

Yesterday was a prime example where i was fully powered (but comfy) on 7.2m RSR and in the nasy chop at hardies i was getting 33's and 34's. keen to go faster .


great stuff bender, in nasty chop i'd be happy with 33's and 34's, how good does it feel to have two boards that quick

nebbian
WA, 6277 posts
22 Jun 2009 2:17PM
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Are you sure that there wasn't any weed on your fin for both runs?

Bender
WA, 2226 posts
22 Jun 2009 2:22PM
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nebbian said...

Are you sure that there wasn't any weed on your fin for both runs?


you'll keep Nebs

Wineman
NSW, 1412 posts
22 Jun 2009 7:00PM
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From the "SmartFins?" topic.

It might be all about the fins
How would you have gone with changing/alternating fins as well as change of sails???

Ian K said...

Interesting numbers Yoyo. They show that when speed is held constant lift varies linearly with angle of attack. And Slowboat's graph showed that when lift is held constant, the angle of attack is inversely proportional to velocity squared. So each fin must have a K value such that

Lift = K * AoA * Velocity squared.

Which is consistent with the basic understanding of how lift is generated ie. F = d/dt(mv)

But getting the K for a particular fin requires of course a more complicated program like Yoyo's used.

I also checked out how the induced drag varied as a percentage of fin lift as angle of attack is varied. See Yoyo's table for the other settings.

AoA................. Lift................... Induced drag.......................... % induced drag of lift

.5 deg...............19kg.................0.048kg ( 2% of total drag)....................... 0.25%
.75 deg ............28.7kg ..............0.1145kg (4.5% of total drag).................... 0.40%
1deg.................38.7kg...............0.1827kg (7% of total drag.)......................0.47%

(Sorry about the dots, the editor didn't allow spaces to get things in columns )

You can see the lift is precisely linear with AoA at constant velocity, the % induced drag sort of linear. But yes well below the lift*sin AoA ( almost but not quite an order of magnitude)

But it seems induced drag is negligible when you're only trying to generate 19 kg of lift (if that ) at 47 knots.

I'm still curious to fully understand what is meant by induced drag, friction is easy. How do these programs calculate it??

Do they work out the pressure distribution over the whole fin. Then do they integrate the pressure times normal-to-the surface vector over the whole fin. The component of the total vector in the direction transverse to motion to be called lift, and the component along the direction of travel called induced drag?





sailquik
VIC, 6149 posts
22 Jun 2009 8:09PM
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Bender said...



My question is at what time/rate of Knots does carrying a bigger sail make you go slower



I think it depends a LOT on the design of the sail, fin, board and angle of sailing.
But: My simple answer that works for me with my gear in my spot at the optimum angle (hows that for a qualified answer ) is as soon as I can be fully powered on the smaller sail I go faster on the smaller one. This assumes that I could crank the downhaul/outhaul on the larger sail so I can keep control on the run. If I have to do that, I can go faster on the smaller sail.
I think this is because:
-the larger sail has too much wind drag for the amount of lift it can now develop in it's crippled shape.
-The larger sail is heavier and does not allow the board to release from the water as easily meaning more board drag.
-The smaller sail has a lower C of E meaning I can direct the power in the desired direction better.
-I can set the smaller sail fuller to develop more power deep off the win from a smaller drag area.

Anyhow, it works for me. although as the KA sails I use are developing, I find that crossover point to change down from the Koncept 5m to the 4.4m it at a slightly higher wind point.

lao shi
SA, 1313 posts
22 Jun 2009 8:21PM
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My tuppence. I think that the water state was your limiting factor. The bigger fin sail combo probably kept the board riding over the chop well. Smaller board fin sail would have gone faster on flatter water. Looking at my track the rolling chop meant that I could run down the trough get high 32's but then started to go over the back and lost speed. Could not get a full broad run. Best speed was in the flatter water near the point but it still was not flat. Unless you are able to do a Claude / Jesper / Slowboat and have a big enough fin and or sail (and cahones) to skip across the top. The water state will limit your speed. At Pt W Yoyo is able to use a smaller sail and fin than most and kick butt. I don't think the same set up would work in estuary chop.

Bender
WA, 2226 posts
22 Jun 2009 7:38PM
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sailquik said...

Bender said...



My question is at what time/rate of Knots does carrying a bigger sail make you go slower



I think it depends a LOT on the design of the sail, fin, board and angle of sailing.
But: My simple answer that works for me with my gear in my spot at the optimum angle (hows that for a qualified answer ) is as soon as I can be fully powered on the smaller sail I go faster on the smaller one. This assumes that I could crank the downhaul/outhaul on the larger sail so I can keep control on the run. If I have to do that, I can go faster on the smaller sail.
I think this is because:
-the larger sail has too much wind drag for the amount of lift it can now develop in it's crippled shape.
-The larger sail is heavier and does not allow the board to release from the water as easily meaning more board drag.
-The smaller sail has a lower C of E meaning I can direct the power in the desired direction better.
-I can set the smaller sail fuller to develop more power deep off the win from a smaller drag area.

Anyhow, it works for me. although as the KA sails I use are developing, I find that crossover point to change down from the Koncept 5m to the 4.4m it at a slightly higher wind point.




Thanks for you thought sailquik. it makes sense.i will run with that and see how i go.

Mark i think your on the money. The Iso with the 7.2m felt heaps easier over the chop as i was not droping into the troughs so much.

This is what i like about this speed gps game. it make you really think about what you are doing.

Thnaks guys for you input i have taken it all onboard. (except for you Neb)

Haggar
QLD, 1667 posts
23 Jun 2009 8:57PM
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Bender, I have been poundering this all year ......... It was a good incite at the KA speed contest at Burrum earlier this year. Pretty much all the fastest speeds where recorded with smaller sails on speed boards. I was using a 6.7 RSR on an i86, with a 34 cm C3 and broke my downhaul rope on the 1st run. Since the wind was picking up to 20 - 25 k, I changed down to a 5.8 RSR with a 30 cm C3. Back out the setup felt really fast, but alas my speed was quite a bit off my PB with my 6.7 with the same board(another day elswhere) But the wind did drop off a bit and the angle was not really broad enough for best speeds. The water state was super flat. My feeling is that on a slalom board go big with what feels comfy, especially when sailing at an optimal broad angle, and the water is very flat. But others argue for efficiency. More experimenting required

firiebob
WA, 3157 posts
23 Jun 2009 7:59PM
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Haggar said...

Bender, I have been poundering this all year ......... It was a good incite at the KA speed contest at Burrum earlier this year. Pretty much all the fastest speeds where recorded with smaller sails on speed boards. I was using a 6.7 RSR on an i86, with a 34 cm C3 and broke my downhaul rope on the 1st run. Since the wind was picking up to 20 - 25 k, I changed down to a 5.8 RSR with a 30 cm C3. Back out the setup felt really fast, but alas my speed was quite a bit off my PB with my 6.7 with the same board(another day elswhere) But the wind did drop off a bit and the angle was not really broad enough for best speeds. The water state was super flat. My feeling is that on a slalom board go big with what feels comfy, especially when sailing at an optimal broad angle, and the water is very flat. But others argue for efficiency. More experimenting required


Vando switched down from his 6.8 & 34cm C3 combo to I think his 5.6 & 30cm on that day, it would be good if he chimed in and let us know what was faster. I had the same model 6.8 and a 30cm C3 and at no stage felt I needed a smaller sail but Vando was about 3 knots faster (but it's not just the gear ).

vando
QLD, 3416 posts
23 Jun 2009 10:17PM
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firiebob said...

Haggar said...

Bender, I have been poundering this all year ......... It was a good incite at the KA speed contest at Burrum earlier this year. Pretty much all the fastest speeds where recorded with smaller sails on speed boards. I was using a 6.7 RSR on an i86, with a 34 cm C3 and broke my downhaul rope on the 1st run. Since the wind was picking up to 20 - 25 k, I changed down to a 5.8 RSR with a 30 cm C3. Back out the setup felt really fast, but alas my speed was quite a bit off my PB with my 6.7 with the same board(another day elswhere) But the wind did drop off a bit and the angle was not really broad enough for best speeds. The water state was super flat. My feeling is that on a slalom board go big with what feels comfy, especially when sailing at an optimal broad angle, and the water is very flat. But others argue for efficiency. More experimenting required


Vando switched down from his 6.8 & 34cm C3 combo to I think his 5.6 & 30cm on that day, it would be good if he chimed in and let us know what was faster. I had the same model 6.8 and a 30cm C3 and at no stage felt I needed a smaller sail but Vando was about 3 knots faster (but it's not just the gear ).


Hard to pick sometimes but its helps knowing ya gear, I know the 6.8 on the speed board is not the best combo but i know the 5.6 and 25 venom is, also the 5.6 does have allot of grunt. I think a 6.2 would have been the pick that day though.

Its really depends on the conditions, gusty i go abit bigger but if its more consistant i use smaller.

Magnus8
QLD, 364 posts
23 Jun 2009 10:39PM
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I would stick to the idea of slalom boards go for a bigger sail size, and speed boards go for a slightly smaller sail size. However things may even out alittle if the course is very broad say 130+. As Vando is faster than all of us, just copying him is the safest bet!

snides8
WA, 1731 posts
23 Jun 2009 10:06PM
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Bender said...

I have been pondering this for awhile now. I seem to be able to sail faster on bigger sized sails than on smaller ones.

Yesterday was a prime example where i was fully powered (but comfy) on 7.2m RSR and in the nasy chop at hardies i was getting 33's and 34's. keen to go faster i switched to a 6.2m RS6 (i could have easily sailed on my 5.4m RSSMKII). The wind was in the 20-30knt range as per BOM readings. On the 6.2m i could only match the speeds got on my 7.2m.

NOTE- the boards used were a Iso86/34GW and a small 48cm wide F2 missile/26F1


I have always believed that going fast really broad is all about the biggest sail possible for the conditions on the smallest board.

My question is at what time/rate of Knots does carrying a bigger sail make you go slower

Speed experts your input here would be very much appreciated.


i am definetly no expert...
but in my opinion when the sail is so powered up that it gets to the point its shape is starting to deform under load i.e the draft starts to wander aft..this is the point when you should be faster on a smaller sail.
this is (my) a very simplistic view and of course there are other numerous factors such as drag etc to contend with.
i know the newer sails are now so much more stable than the previous years that the threshhold for being overpowered has risen so far but these sails are still subject too distortion if you stick enough wind in them.

Bender
WA, 2226 posts
23 Jun 2009 11:39PM
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Keep the different points of view coming guys, its great. Thanks

decrepit
WA, 12370 posts
24 Jun 2009 11:00AM
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If snides is no expert, that makes me a complete amateur.
But I was speaking to Bugs recently along similar lines. From what I've gathered from him, although modern sails have a huge range, they will still have a sweet spot, where they are the most efficient, the optimum downhaul/outhaul, to get the sail in the right shape, for maximum lift to drag ratio. The wind speed for this is going to vary for different riders physique, (weight and leverage).
In up and down conditions, over a longer time period average speed will be better with a bigger sail because it doesn't slow down that much when overpowered, but goes faster in the lulls.
For 2sec/10sec bursts, a sail that's in the sweet spot for the gusts, will be faster.

sailquik
VIC, 6149 posts
24 Jun 2009 2:45PM
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decrepit said...

.....I was speaking to Bugs recently along similar lines. From what I've gathered from him, although modern sails have a huge range, they will still have a sweet spot, where they are the most efficient, the optimum downhaul/outhaul, to get the sail in the right shape, for maximum lift to drag ratio. The wind speed for this is going to vary for different riders physique, (weight and leverage).
In up and down conditions, over a longer time period average speed will be better with a bigger sail because it doesn't slow down that much when overpowered, but goes faster in the lulls.
For 2sec/10sec bursts, a sail that's in the sweet spot for the gusts, will be faster.


Spot on!!

Spotty
VIC, 1619 posts
24 Jun 2009 7:48PM
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I agree Decrepit,

In general the rule to follow is hold onto the largest sail you can handle going off the wind for any given conditions. Likewise use the smallest fin for the given sail combo that allows you to sail in control.

With my Koncept 6.6 or 5.0, Ka assym' 23 or 21 respectively, both have done around 45knots, Slowie & Tonster I think have had similar high speeds with larger sails too.

Sometimes I think where you are located in a gust plays a part in how the wind is circulating/flowing around the sail that makes it feel somewhat underpowered, yet you record a great speed without much of a fight/effort. Aka "The magic carpet ride".
A few have had such rides, mine I ended early at 45knots whilst still steadily accellerating, I had know idea how fast I was going and thought it was a slow run, so I stopped early

Would be interesting to see on water test data from small sensors on a sail that indicate airflow direction/pressure at various points across both sides of the sail. Not talking bits of stickytape and wool either.



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"sail size vers speed" started by Bender