I'm 90kg/181cm riding a 104L wave cult V6 as my big board. Around here it's mostly side/side-on windswell under head high with gusty wind and lots of chop so having a bit more volume but a softer ride is important.
Currently running maximum foot spread with the mast base just behind center. Usually as a twin with 18cm or a quad with 10/15cm. Not thrilled with it as a thruster but maybe I haven't given it a good enough try.
I like the forward strap positions when dredging for a wave, getting through the break and toe side. What I'm finding is that the board isn't particularly fast and it's rough on the ankles at speed. Is running a bit more fin and moving everything back (mast, straps, fins) a reasonable approach to smoothing it out?
4.7-5.3 with my step down board being an 85L. When I set the same strap positions from the tail on that board it's about perfect (different brand though).
Well your sails aren't too demanding on fin size so that's good. If you're tall or like full rail turns than wide stance is best. Lowers your center of gravity and increases turning stability.
You may move the mast track a bit more back so long as the nose stays low enough or doesn't push too much water. It can make it easier on the chop yes.
How does the board ride on the wave during sharp turns both front side and backside?
Can you adjust fins position?
Everyone I know with one of them hated it sorry to say. They changed the shape massively for the V6 and quickly realised the error I think.....
I would try every tuning thing you can think of, and go to extremes.
I'm tall but my legs are very short for my height, 181cm/76cm inseam.
This board is mainly for mushy windswell so not a lot of need for full rail carving. Running as a twin mostly with quite raked fins (Scorchers) full back seems to work nicely. Fast enough but I can slide the tail around on little waves, especially going from toe back to heelside.
Using Ezzy 2degree asymmetrical front 10cm adds a lot of grip (along with 15cm Stubby rears) but I prefer the twins in windswell.
I suppose I start with the mast base to see about freeing things up.
Mark,
I don't mind it, except that it just doesn't seem to work as a thruster for me which is the stock setup. That seemed like the worst of all worlds. Did the people you know do much fin tuning?
Ok, fins work on grip and lift. Board shape define the turn and type of turn (rail, rocker, width). If the board lacks drive in low winds it helps to move straps forward. If you need more control over board trim then back.
Generally moving straps front or back is a bit of the same as having a heavier or lighter rider. Lighter riders benefit from straps further back to gain leverage on width and vice versa.
You find your board slow in the turns or planing? Mast back with create a bit more lift and less wetted surface (faster), be more playful too.
Planing, but mainly it's just a bit rough and rides very planted. I might have a 22cm fin to retry the thruster idea, the 17-19cm I tried were not successful.
Turns are surprisingly good for a board that size and it gybes like a dream although you do need to pick your way around the chop.
Back straps back, front straps forward.
Tail fin size for sharper turns.
Early planing vs tighter turning are opposite setups.
Oooh planing! Well yep fin, straps forward but mast track a touch back. I'd look for more upright fins no matter the config. I run a 23 single on my 105 so 22 + 10, it'll drag a bit but you're bigger than me. Maybe center fin a bit back.
A fin with a wider base gives more low end kick and lull support. Straighter fins have more speed and are more direct.
Well I crunched a bunch of fin size numbers and compared them to other similar boards, wrote a big post then accidentally hit the back button.
Basically it seems I've been running it underfinned for my weight. Very similar boards are running 20-22cm rear with 10-12 fronts in thruster and 15-17 rear with 10-12 fronts for quad.
My thruster setup was far more marginal than that and may have simply not had the lift to get this much board moving. Does explain why the quad was faster with almost 30% more area but not why the twin with the same area felt faster. Could simply have less control or ridden rougher which can feel fast but I don't think so.
Also the thruster box is slightly further back and I'd been running the center fin no further back than centered while the twins are running best full rearward.
I'm going to see about some fin tuning and not being afraid of the big rear unless it's howling. Also move the mast base back and possibly one strap hole back on the front to free things up.
Now I just need some wind.
^^ Agreed on my similar wave boards I use 20+11 in thruster, 16.5 and 10 quad
Prefer bigger rears and smaller fronts than factory setups to get that twinny feel with the little bit of quad control.
As to your previous question I don;t know what the other guys did tuning wise but few of us just hated it. I want to put it next to the years before and after and see what this one change was that killed the Cult like feel. I love all the wave cults ever and not that V6 (same feedback form others too)
I recall I liked it better as a quad but it just was weird on a wave. Of course in all this - to each their own!
Something I did find weird on this board is it's the only one I've ever measured toe OUT on the front boxes. The factory symmetrical front fins which are 11cm combined with a 19cm rear was not a fun combo. The boxes are also loose enough I think I can play with shimming for more toe than my fins have (I like toe/asymm fronts).
Likewise I have preferred it with two rear fins and either no fronts or 10cm rather than a thruster but I'm going to play with this. I'm going to try some 12cm incinerator asymmetrical once I get my hands on them. Probably a set of rears too.
I have a set of US box 16 Leons that I haven't knocked the pin off yet but they might pair well as a quad since I find them very fast with a twinny feel.
I haven't sailed anything from RRD that wasn't older than 2005 before this came along. There are aspects of it I quite like but my frame of reference isn't very deep. I'm rarely on what proper wave sailors would call a real wave.
If I could have found a Simmer Quantum or Cortex around this size I would have though: they seem to be plug and play for me and my conditions.
Most locals ride Goya Custom 3 and 4 or older Goya/Quatro stuff.
I'll throw a ruler on it tomorrow but something very minor like 1-2mm. Still not good though.
My Simmer has 1.5 degrees total toe in and I still run 1 degree toed fins. Currently using 2 degree on the RRD and curious about more.
Most factory boards have a tiny tiny toe in so if something goes wrong at least they're not toed out.
I cannot imagine any wave board being designed with toe out.
Maybe that's what killed the V6. Wish I measured it, I might have just changed the boxes out.
Almost 2mm. Sounds like a manufacturing oversight on my board but as you say usually they err on the toe in side of things to prevent that. Guessing the design called for zero toe.
I've tried 1 degree symmetrical and 2 degree asymmetrical fins in this board. The 2 degree were better and I'd get 3 degree if I get some 12cm.
Just looking at it all the boxes are rather far forward for a "stubby" and the fronts are pretty inboard too. I'd be curious to put it next to a V7.
Tried it as a thruster again. 10/22, 10/17 (all K4) and factory 11/19 all just DID NOT WORK. None wanted to initiate turns then would slide right out if you added more pressure. Tried going toe side DTL and the 10/22 straight up would not turn, the 10/17 tried but still resisted then completely sideways.
10/22 did truck upwind but the trade off wasn't worth it. Funny enough I've stuck that 22 in my 85L with 8 fronts and had none of those problems. Maybe the front fin box toe issue is what's screwing things up, I know thrusters want more toe than quads which the 85L has.
Back to 17 Scorcher twins and all is right. Moving the front straps back one notch and the mast base back 1.5cm had it running more free.
Only complaint with the twin 17 is it can only go low/fast and takes some room to wind up, doesn't have a high/slow mode which is tough because my local break needs a lot of upwind ability but gets very choppy outside. I'm going to do some more experiments with quad setups including trying to get more toe out of a pair of 10 front that are a little worse for wear.
This seems to be the most fin sensitive board I've ever owned.
Seems fine as a quad with 15/10 and the fronts being 2 degree Ezzy asymmetrical. Then again quads need less toe.
My only other thought is that the tail is so wide it's ventilating the rear fin in thruster mode, but I think it's the toe.
Quite a bit seems going on. It was first about planing now it's turning. Fins affect grip and rail to rail response, the boards shape makes contact with the wave curves. Fins spread do affect turning tightness by widening the grip.
Know if the board is backfoot? How about you?
22+10 for a 5.3 seems like unnecessary drag. If your 22 is a bit more freewave than wave then I'd try it as a single.
Twin 17s will be great on a wave but refrain from getting you going in light winds. How about 17s+8s?
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
Quads rarely need any toe - you're correcting the error back to zero IMHO
I REALLY like the feel of asymmetricals with toe. Call it K4 hype but it suits me and the mush I ride. The 2 degree feel amazing in my Simmer which has 1.5 degrees in the boxes already. Both as a quad and a thruster.
Manuel:
I'm generally a front footed sailor and the board when setup right turns on the front.
The 22 is a wave fin and at my weight (95kg) isn't huge. I've run it on my 85L with none of the turning problems, even running a 5.3 when I was a little lighter and in very steady wind.
The 17s are Scorchers which I feel are too wide on the base and swept to be good as quad rears.
I have some more upright 16s which I'm going to try as rears.
Select to expand quoteManuel7 said..
Twin 17s will be great on a wave but refrain from getting you going in light winds. How about 17s+8s?
IMO, getting going is probably 50% board, 30% sailor and only 20% fins. The pro and semi-pro sailors ride far smaller fin setups than I do and get planing earlier than I do (or most non pro sailors for that matter).
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..Mark _australia said..
Quads rarely need any toe - you're correcting the error back to zero IMHO
I REALLY like the feel of asymmetricals with toe. Call it K4 hype but it suits me and the mush I ride. The 2 degree feel amazing in my Simmer which has 1.5 degrees in the boxes already. Both as a quad and a thruster.
Manuel:
I'm generally a front footed sailor and the board when setup right turns on the front.
The 22 is a wave fin and at my weight (95kg) isn't huge. I've run it on my 85L with none of the turning problems, even running a 5.3 when I was a little lighter and in very steady wind.
The 17s are Scorchers which I feel are too wide on the base and swept to be good as quad rears.
I have some more upright 16s which I'm going to try as rears.
I bet it would be nice as a Twin with Stubby 17 or 18.... I run those on one of my boards & it works really well - fly's upwind & Turns like a twin should. Compared to the Scorchers it has more lift so less settled but will free the nose up a bit...
My 15s are Stubbys. I've run them as a twin and quad, they are a super easy fin to use. At my skill level having an easy fin to use definitely helps. So perhaps I'll take a look at them in a longer length.
I'd also like to try 12cm Ezzy asymmetrical with 3 degrees if toe.
Fins are cheap enough and where I sail is very hard on them.
Toe-out would be very strange...
I have an older starboard 77l quad (from 2011, i think) with dead straight boxes and that didn't work well at all, to me. I could sail in a straight line with the windward front fin fully cavitating, while the other fins were barely being pushed. The Ezzy asymmetric works well though, I now use 8cm (3 degrees) in the front and 14 (2 degrees) in the back. Turns on a dime, and the toe-in gives a little more forward drive in the turns. The ones marked with 1 degree are actually about neutral I think, due to the asymmetric profile. So don't be afraid to get the ones at 3 degrees. They work well even in boards that do have toe-in, like the simmer boards. In thruster mode I quite like the new Ezzy asymmetric shark (3 degrees), barely feel them in a straight line and it is very easy to go into a turn at will.
Ive had boards with dead straight boxes which turned pretty well although I preferred them with toed fins.
Didn't Starboard quads from the early years use surf boxes and bigger fronts than rears?
I'm curious to see if K4 ever tries a twisted fin. Unlike G10 it wouldn't be that difficult to produce.
Starboard had surf boxes for the first year only (2010), as I remember it. After that they went with slot boxes front and rear, and then finally their own box which is a blend of US and SB.
Yes, they did have larger front fins in 2010, while in 2011 its was only one of the recommended set-ups. So you had 3 choices from their supplied fins, large in the front or large in the back (using the same four fins), or a Twin set-up (two extra fins supplied for that).
I believe they also have the fin boxes quite close to the rail? That's the first time I've heard of someone using toed and asymmetrical fins for the rear on anything except a SUP.
I haven't measured the distance but below are two pictures. With the toe-in it feels more like surfing on the wave to me, and I feel less of the fins in the turns.
