My first day on a 60L board (I weigh 82kg). Wind was 16-18 kts. 5m sail. Armstrong HA980 front foil. Please make suggestions for improvements. Thanks in advance.
www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xxnhp4k3pepheqr4odd9m/IMG_4206.mov?rlkey=m0ax3mwvj92oxejb0qjs4q3la&st=m94mrl99&dl=0
Ok, so I have more of a question than any advice to offer. Hard to tell from the short video clip but it looks like you are still working building your jibe skills and consistency,...unless I'm missing something. My question is why (even with a skinny mid-length board) would you want to drop to a more challenging minus 22 (board L volume to kg weight) at this stage of your skill progression? Nothing wrong with giving yourself a challenge, but why not keep the volume higher for now (making starting less tiring) until you've gained more fundamental riding skills (flayout/pumping, foot switch, tacking, etc) and then make the switch. Sorry ahead of time if I misread the video.
You're pretty much on the mark. My jibes remain a work in progress. And riding toeside. And foot switches. And under dodgy conditions, my take offs.
I hear you about the small board. I own a skinny 6'6" 105L board and an 88L 3 year old Armstrong board. I was demoing the 60L.
Funny thing, though, at least in the conditions that day, I had good consistency with my takeoffs on the 60L board. It was a different challenge getting to standing on the board but I managed it. Once standing, getting on foil was a piece of cake.
So in addition to TOF, what be I be thinking about to improve the takeoffs, jibes and toeside rides?
Ok, with that in mind I think you progress far more rapidly by not trying to move too quickly into higher performance gear (small boards and smaller high aspect foils) and really challenging conditions (strong gusty choppy conditions). I realize that you don't always have a lot of control over your local conditions which might make it necessary to travel for those ideal learning conditions, but you have full control over gear choice.
FWIW I remember learning all the basics in 2019 and early 2020. We were all on larger boards and larger lower aspect foils back then by default. You really didn't have much choice. Today the gear has gotten so much better but I often see people getting into advanced gear before their skills might justify it. The classic case is someone on a smaller HA foil who can bump ride and jibe away but struggles with any upwind transitions. In my case I learned to jibe, foot switch and toe-side tack on my very first gear in 2019 (118l board and 2100 sq cm foil; I'm 75 kg).
In Jan 2020 I upgraded to a 90 l board and a 1900 sq cm front wing (Gong XL Pro; Gong only had a couple of models back then). With that first upgrade I really started flag-out/pumping, heel-side tacks, backwinded, several 360 variations, bump riding, etc. That was such an easy foil and board for learning those more advanced moves in modest conditions. I almost glad I didn't have all the gear choices that people have today!
I don't see a problem with going down in volume at your stage, if you don't mind starting the thing over and over again. In fact I did the exact same. I feel I made more progress that way.
From what I see, you may want to control mast height a bit more and angl
I don't see a problem with going down in volume at your stage, if you don't mind starting the thing over and over again. In fact I did the exact same. I feel I made more progress that way.
From what I see, you may want to control mast height a bit more and bank the board more to an angle, so the foil is more stable.
@choosywinger at this point in your jibe (at 01:11 in your clip) where you have already initiated the turn, let go with the back hand, and just commit to turning the board. Holding on with both hands is what messes it up for you.
Select to expand quoteDspace said..
Ok, with that in mind I think you progress far more rapidly by not trying to move too quickly into higher performance gear (small boards and smaller high aspect foils) and really challenging conditions (strong gusty choppy conditions). I realize that you don't always have a lot of control over your local conditions which might make it necessary to travel for those ideal learning conditions, but you have full control over gear choice.
FWIW I remember learning all the basics in 2019 and early 2020. We were all on larger boards and larger lower aspect foils back then by default. You really didn't have much choice. Today the gear has gotten so much better but I often see people getting into advanced gear before their skills might justify it. The classic case is someone on a smaller HA foil who can bump ride and jibe away but struggles with any upwind transitions. In my case I learned to jibe, foot switch and toe-side tack on my very first gear in 2019 (118l board and 2100 sq cm foil; I'm 75 kg).
In Jan 2020 I upgraded to a 90 l board and a 1900 sq cm front wing (Gong XL Pro; Gong only had a couple of models back then). With that first upgrade I really started flag-out/pumping, heel-side tacks, backwinded, several 360 variations, bump riding, etc. That was such an easy foil and board for learning those more advanced moves in modest conditions. I almost glad I didn't have all the gear choices that people have today!
So you're saying learn to love my HS1550 and HS1850 front wings again. Worth a try. Thanks.
Select to expand quotepacoz said..
I don't see a problem with going down in volume at your stage, if you don't mind starting the thing over and over again. In fact I did the exact same. I feel I made more progress that way.
From what I see, you may want to control mast height a bit more and bank the board more to an angle, so the foil is more stable.
Is this a TOF thing or should I be practicing something specific? I'm trying to lean (going upwind) and trying to control mast height. Riding toeside makes mast height control much more difficult for me.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
@choosywinger at this point in your jibe (at 01:11 in your clip) where you have already initiated the turn, let go with the back hand, and just commit to turning the board. Holding on with both hands is what messes it up for you.
Perfect. Thanks. Yeah, why the heck didn't I just let go? Focused on the wrong stuff, probably.
In response to why you didn't let go of your back hand - I think its because you didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and without that speed, you tried to compensate with stability from the wing. See below for more on that.
Regarding your takeoff:
I think you need to power up the wing more aggressively to get stability. You are on your knees without much power in the wing, and with very little board speed, and that combination is inherently unstable. You need to figure out how to get more power in the wing, and build some board speed.
I know your two handed start works for a lot of people, but its not my personal preference because it puts you in an unstable position for longer, and it also doesn't allow you to feel the wind as well. I prefer to straddle the board while holding the front strut handle of the wing (not the luff handle) and luffing it over my head to feel for the wind, while holding my board with the downwind hand. Once I feel good wind over the sail (this is critical, and your current technique doesn't really allow you to feel for the wind because you are too low and imbalanced), i quickly go to my knees. To get to my knees I brace the board with my downwind hand on the rail, and use the elbow of my hand holding the front handle of the wing to stabilize the other side. As soon as I'm on my knees, I grab the back handle and sheet in to quickly get some board speed. Might take a few pumps on my knees if the wind is light, or might just go straight to my feet if powered - just depends on how quickly I build board speed.
Regarding your gybe:
More speed -- speed will give you stability. Sheet in and power up going into the gybe, then release the back hand and glide downwind. You didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and therefore you lacked stability. Because you lacked speed, you lacked stability, and you held onto the back handle too long to compensate. More speed will also put more weight on the front foot, and will allow you to draw the turn out instead of forcing it around.
Agreed with all said above. Your take off, looks good. It also looks like it's the first day on a smaller board. Keep working that skill, you will get it. (I ride that board and I'm 175lbs. I love it)
The toeside jibe needed more speed. In the screenshot above you have the wing very flat above your head. You can initiate the downwind part of the turn by pulling in on your back hand for a quick second/half a second. (Strut still pointed up at the sky like it is in the photo. Just pull your back hand down and towards hip.) Once the wing fills with wind and pulls you downwind, release your backhand and keep your front hand high. The wing will flag back out to the position it is in the screen shot. You turn under it.
I liked everything about your video though. Keep it up!
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
In response to why you didn't let go of your back hand - I think its because you didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and without that speed, you tried to compensate with stability from the wing. See below for more on that.
Regarding your takeoff:
I think you need to power up the wing more aggressively to get stability. You are on your knees without much power in the wing, and with very little board speed, and that combination is inherently unstable. You need to figure out how to get more power in the wing, and build some board speed.
I know your two handed start works for a lot of people, but its not my personal preference because it puts you in an unstable position for longer, and it also doesn't allow you to feel the wind as well. I prefer to straddle the board while holding the front strut handle of the wing (not the luff handle) and luffing it over my head to feel for the wind, while holding my board with the downwind hand. Once I feel good wind over the sail (this is critical, and your current technique doesn't really allow you to feel for the wind because you are too low and imbalanced), i quickly go to my knees. To get to my knees I brace the board with my downwind hand on the rail, and use the elbow of my hand holding the front handle of the wing to stabilize the other side. As soon as I'm on my knees, I grab the back handle and sheet in to quickly get some board speed. Might take a few pumps on my knees if the wind is light, or might just go straight to my feet if powered - just depends on how quickly I build board speed.
Regarding your gybe:
More speed -- speed will give you stability. Sheet in and power up going into the gybe, then release the back hand and glide downwind. You didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and therefore you lacked stability. Because you lacked speed, you lacked stability, and you held onto the back handle too long to compensate. More speed will also put more weight on the front foot, and will allow you to draw the turn out instead of forcing it around.
That's an interesting idea for starts. I'll play around with it. Thanks.
Select to expand quoteHdip said..
Agreed with all said above. Your take off, looks good. It also looks like it's the first day on a smaller board. Keep working that skill, you will get it. (I ride that board and I'm 175lbs. I love it)
The toeside jibe needed more speed. In the screenshot above you have the wing very flat above your head. You can initiate the downwind part of the turn by pulling in on your back hand for a quick second/half a second. (Strut still pointed up at the sky like it is in the photo. Just pull your back hand down and towards hip.) Once the wing fills with wind and pulls you downwind, release your backhand and keep your front hand high. The wing will flag back out to the position it is in the screen shot. You turn under it.
I liked everything about your video though. Keep it up!
I struggle building speed toeside. Thanks for the suggestion.
Update:
Thanks again for your suggestions. I put them all to work in the gorge this past Monday and Tuesday. Monday was 15kts and Tuesday was 30kts.
Especially helpful was swapping out the HA foils in favor of my old forgotten Armstrong HS1550. Wow! So much easier. The aforesaid may elicit lots of "no duhs" from the readers but my thinking was if I could ride HA foils I should as they are more efficient and I should be challenging myself. The HA foils are going away for a while. Maybe I'll break the them out again next year (or the year after).
I mostly rode the 60 L board shown in the video and had little if any trouble starting. It was a pleasure to foil with so much less board.
Finally, I survived and even enjoyed a 30+ kt session at Rufus. Last time I was there in similar conditions (earlier this season on a HA foil), it was a ****show.
Select to expand quotechoosywinger said..Velocicraptor said..
In response to why you didn't let go of your back hand - I think its because you didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and without that speed, you tried to compensate with stability from the wing. See below for more on that.
Regarding your takeoff:
I think you need to power up the wing more aggressively to get stability. You are on your knees without much power in the wing, and with very little board speed, and that combination is inherently unstable. You need to figure out how to get more power in the wing, and build some board speed.
I know your two handed start works for a lot of people, but its not my personal preference because it puts you in an unstable position for longer, and it also doesn't allow you to feel the wind as well. I prefer to straddle the board while holding the front strut handle of the wing (not the luff handle) and luffing it over my head to feel for the wind, while holding my board with the downwind hand. Once I feel good wind over the sail (this is critical, and your current technique doesn't really allow you to feel for the wind because you are too low and imbalanced), i quickly go to my knees. To get to my knees I brace the board with my downwind hand on the rail, and use the elbow of my hand holding the front handle of the wing to stabilize the other side. As soon as I'm on my knees, I grab the back handle and sheet in to quickly get some board speed. Might take a few pumps on my knees if the wind is light, or might just go straight to my feet if powered - just depends on how quickly I build board speed.
Regarding your gybe:
More speed -- speed will give you stability. Sheet in and power up going into the gybe, then release the back hand and glide downwind. You didn't have enough speed going into the gybe and therefore you lacked stability. Because you lacked speed, you lacked stability, and you held onto the back handle too long to compensate. More speed will also put more weight on the front foot, and will allow you to draw the turn out instead of forcing it around.
That's an interesting idea for starts. I'll play around with it. Thanks.
Velo, I tried your start suggestion but couldn't make it work.
Your takeoff is impressive, especially for your first time. However, the main issue I see is with your wing. The soft handles on the F-One wing make it less stable in gusty conditions.
Avoid using your elbow to stabilize yourself on the board, as this can lead to injury over time.
If you switch to a wing with hard handles (especially a long front handle) or a boom, you'll be able to adjust your technique. This will allow you to hold the wing with one hand while using the other hand to stabilize the board, making it easier to pull your legs onto the board.
Like here in my video:
Select to expand quoteczareka said..
Your takeoff is impressive, especially for your first time. However, the main issue I see is with your wing. The soft handles on the F-One wing make it less stable in gusty conditions.
Avoid using your elbow to stabilize yourself on the board, as this can lead to injury over time.
If you switch to a wing with hard handles (especially a long front handle) or a boom, you'll be able to adjust your technique. This will allow you to hold the wing with one hand while using the other hand to stabilize the board, making it easier to pull your legs onto the board.
Like here in my video:
?si=O-JHfGRlz-1xaJQF
My 3 and 4m wings are F-one strike 4. I'll try out their hard handles. Thanks.
Select to expand quotechoosywinger said..czareka said..
Your takeoff is impressive, especially for your first time. However, the main issue I see is with your wing. The soft handles on the F-One wing make it less stable in gusty conditions.
Avoid using your elbow to stabilize yourself on the board, as this can lead to injury over time.
If you switch to a wing with hard handles (especially a long front handle) or a boom, you'll be able to adjust your technique. This will allow you to hold the wing with one hand while using the other hand to stabilize the board, making it easier to pull your legs onto the board.
Like here in my video:
?si=O-JHfGRlz-1xaJQF
My 3 and 4m wings are F-one strike 4. I'll try out their hard handles. Thanks.
I'm not sure if the front handle on the Strike is long enough to start this way. On my current unit, the longer front handle allows me to lift myself up with the wing while putting my other hand on the board and pulling my legs on the board.
Select to expand quotechoosywinger said..czareka said..
Your takeoff is impressive, especially for your first time. However, the main issue I see is with your wing. The soft handles on the F-One wing make it less stable in gusty conditions.
Avoid using your elbow to stabilize yourself on the board, as this can lead to injury over time.
If you switch to a wing with hard handles (especially a long front handle) or a boom, you'll be able to adjust your technique. This will allow you to hold the wing with one hand while using the other hand to stabilize the board, making it easier to pull your legs onto the board.
Like here in my video:
?si=O-JHfGRlz-1xaJQF
My 3 and 4m wings are F-one strike 4. I'll try out their hard handles. Thanks.
I'm not sure if the front handle on the Strike is long enough to start this way. On my current unit, the longer front handle allows me to lift myself up with the wing while putting my other hand on the board and pulling my legs on the board.
Select to expand quotesaid..
Update:
Thanks again for your suggestions. I put them all to work in the gorge this past Monday and Tuesday. Monday was 15kts and Tuesday was 30kts.
Especially helpful was swapping out the HA foils in favor of my old forgotten Armstrong HS1550. Wow! So much easier. The aforesaid may elicit lots of "no duhs" from the readers but my thinking was if I could ride HA foils I should as they are more efficient and I should be challenging myself. The HA foils are going away for a while. Maybe I'll break the them out again next year (or the year after).
I mostly rode the 60 L board shown in the video and had little if any trouble starting. It was a pleasure to foil with so much less board.
Finally, I survived and even enjoyed a 30+ kt session at Rufus. Last time I was there in similar conditions (earlier this season on a HA foil), it was a ****show.
Glad you saw the light! One other thing to keep in mind is that HA foils are not always the pinnacle to strive for depending on the type of riding you're doing. For my primary riding style a high performance mid-aspect (7-9.5) is a better fit. FWIW there was a time when the 1550 was considered a small wing
Select to expand quoteDspace said..said..
Update:
Thanks again for your suggestions. I put them all to work in the gorge this past Monday and Tuesday. Monday was 15kts and Tuesday was 30kts.
Especially helpful was swapping out the HA foils in favor of my old forgotten Armstrong HS1550. Wow! So much easier. The aforesaid may elicit lots of "no duhs" from the readers but my thinking was if I could ride HA foils I should as they are more efficient and I should be challenging myself. The HA foils are going away for a while. Maybe I'll break the them out again next year (or the year after).
I mostly rode the 60 L board shown in the video and had little if any trouble starting. It was a pleasure to foil with so much less board.
Finally, I survived and even enjoyed a 30+ kt session at Rufus. Last time I was there in similar conditions (earlier this season on a HA foil), it was a ****show.
Glad you saw the light! One other thing to keep in mind is that HA foils are not always the pinnacle to strive for depending on the type of riding you're doing. For my primary riding style a high performance mid-aspect (7-9.5) is a better fit. FWIW there was a time when the 1550 was considered a small wing
So what riding style match which foil aspect classes? Presumably HA foils are best suited to pumping intensive riding. And low/mid aspect foils would perform better for tight turns. Can you elaborate more?
Thanks.
Select to expand quotechoosywinger said..Dspace said..
Glad you saw the light! One other thing to keep in mind is that HA foils are not always the pinnacle to strive for depending on the type of riding you're doing. For my primary riding style a high performance mid-aspect (7-9.5) is a better fit. FWIW there was a time when the 1550 was considered a small wing
So what riding style match which foil aspect classes? Presumably HA foils are best suited to pumping intensive riding. And low/mid aspect foils would perform better for tight turns. Can you elaborate more?
Thanks.
Just my humble opinion, but I consider a high performance mid-aspect an all-rounder (Jack of all trades, master of none). Great combination of top end and low end, very turny (loose), good glide and pump ability, and general ease of use. But it doesn't win in any specific category. I always picture serious HA's for downwinding and bump connecting with the best glide and pump.
Guess you'd call my primary riding flattish water strapless freestyle with some moderate bumps thrown in. I barely go 20 meters without a transition. Lots of upwind-downwind variations (increasing # of 360 variations), backwinded, back-to-back, around-the worlds, behind-the back tacks into 360's, handle pass jibes, duck jibe-behind-the-back combo's, blah, blah, blah. Definitely not the average style of the 90% flag-out and connect waves/bumps mainstream riders. I'm sure there are young riders who can do far more me than on a 700 sq cm all-out HA foil, but those mid-aspects just make it far more doable for my 65 yr old self. Gong Veloce V2 L is my daily driver on an hm 85 mast
