Can anyone provide pros or cons with regards to wing foiling in waves with the 95cm or longer masts?
Some cons
- Need deeper water to start
- Harder to start due to extra drag of longer mast
- Extra weight
- May not be noticeable depending on construction but a longer mast will have more flex
Some pros
- Easier winging back out against the swell (don't have to pitch down hard over the top of a wave/bump)
- Less likely to breach when dropping on a big wave.
- Can lean over further without a tip breach - (not that big an issue with modern foils).
DTee has summed it up well.
I think the biggest downside is point number one. Getting out through the shore break will be harder with a longer mast.
Select to expand quoteJonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
This is the biggest con IMO. Way slower rail to rail.
Select to expand quoteJonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
Mine is 935 not 100 but I think there are all advantages, except for water depth and super light wind. Once you get use to riding higher, roll response is the same. In larger surf it gives you a lot more room.
Select to expand quotebolocom said..JonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
Mine is 935 not 100 but I think there are all advantages, except for water depth and super light wind. Once you get use to riding higher, roll response is the same. In larger surf it gives you a lot more room.
Have you used both long and shorter masts in the surf?
I switch between a 795 and 935 mast depending on the days wave size, sea state and wind speed.
Under 20 knots and smaller than overhead waves I prefer the 795 mast especially with the ML board. It's easier to stay in the power zone when flagged out and rail to rail turns are quicker and smoother.
Over 20 knots and +overhead waves or confused sea state I run the 935 mast. So much better control dropping in to big waves much easier to handle the power and high speeds with no fear of a breach. Long bottom turns feel easier to control. Going upwind in heavy seas just set the ride height and crank it, the board never touches.
I don't see any need to go longer as here on the east coast it's a rare day to have bigger than double overhead rideable conditions.
Select to expand quoteKB7 said..
I switch between a 795 and 935 mast depending on the days wave size, sea state and wind speed.
Under 20 knots and smaller than overhead waves I prefer the 795 mast especially with the ML board. It's easier to stay in the power zone when flagged out and rail to rail turns are quicker and smoother.
Over 20 knots and +overhead waves or confused sea state I run the 935 mast. So much better control dropping in to big waves much easier to handle the power and high speeds with no fear of a breach. Long bottom turns feel easier to control. Going upwind in heavy seas just set the ride height and crank it, the board never touches.
I don't see any need to go longer as here on the east coast it's a rare day to have bigger than double overhead rideable conditions.
I have same set up for masts (Armie 795/935). Fully echo KB7's points. Also have an Omen 87cm mast that is a great compromise for winging in all conditions. IMHO going over the 935cm length dulls responsiveness enough that I'm not interested in riding longer at this stage.
I use a 102cm mast in waves a lot. As has been stated before, I think the biggest con with a long mast is getting out through the swell. Maybe I'm not talented enough to notice the difference in roll. It doesn't seem to affect me.
The biggest pro is the ability to be able to bomb down the face and have oodles of play up your sleeve. It makes getting out through chop dead easy in comparison. Way fewer touchdowns and breaches. You can go a lot faster with confidence too, knowing you don't have to slow down to match the pitch as the waves roll through.
The other con with the long mast is it's easier and doesn't make you refine your technique as much.
Select to expand quotedorothyinste said..bolocom said..JonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
Mine is 935 not 100 but I think there are all advantages, except for water depth and super light wind. Once you get use to riding higher, roll response is the same. In larger surf it gives you a lot more room.
Have you used both long and shorter masts in the surf?
Yes I use 75 for DW and surf and 84 and 90 for wing. We get large lumpy waves a lot so I agree with the pro arguments, but I have also felt the limits of the 90. One thing that has happened to me is getting low on the mast in a bottom turn can get you stuck on that turn and unable to transition in time to the top turn side causing an ejection out the back. My 84 also has a shorter chord and is a lot more responsive. I do prefer the 90 in flat water for speed run type riding and it would be better for scary big waves where turns are pretty minimal.
Select to expand quotebolocom said..JonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
Mine is 935 not 100 but I think there are all advantages, except for water depth and super light wind. Once you get use to riding higher, roll response is the same. In larger surf it gives you a lot more room.
I agree I used 90cm masts for most of my first three seasons but changed to an 84 with a shorter chord and it's better for me since it won't lock in if I get low on the mast after my bottom turn
I think some people perceive the roll change differently and that taps into how your bodies muscles like to move rail to rail, slower and more powerful with longer masts or faster and twitchier with shorter masts.
At the most basic level the longer mast requires a greater distance of travel to go rail to rail, so you can never get toeside to heelside as quickly simply because the distance traveled is further.
Select to expand quotedorothyinste said..bolocom said..JonahL said..
Another con: worse roll response
Mine is 935 not 100 but I think there are all advantages, except for water depth and super light wind. Once you get use to riding higher, roll response is the same. In larger surf it gives you a lot more room.
Have you used both long and shorter masts in the surf?
Yes, I use 72 in shallow water or sup foiling
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
I think some people perceive the roll change differently and that taps into how your bodies muscles like to move rail to rail, slower and more powerful with longer masts or faster and twitchier with shorter masts.
At the most basic level the longer mast requires a greater distance of travel to go rail to rail, so you can never get toeside to heelside as quickly simply because the distance traveled is further.
If you ride high on the mast it should be the same. I like a 50 fuse with shorter mast for sup foiling in the surf, feels loser. And 60 fuse for winging, with chopped 140 tail and 780 580 or ma 800 front wing if overhead. These setups feels quick and loose, maybe the 935 mast balance everything out. just wish the new ha's had the speed of the old ones. (Armstrong)
Select to expand quotebolocom said..BWalnut said..
I think some people perceive the roll change differently and that taps into how your bodies muscles like to move rail to rail, slower and more powerful with longer masts or faster and twitchier with shorter masts.
At the most basic level the longer mast requires a greater distance of travel to go rail to rail, so you can never get toeside to heelside as quickly simply because the distance traveled is further.
If you ride high on the mast it should be the same. I like a 50 fuse with shorter mast for sup foiling in the surf, feels loser. And 60 fuse for winging, with chopped 140 tail and 780 580 or ma 800 front wing if overhead. These setups feels quick and loose, maybe the 935 mast balance everything out. just wish the new ha's had the speed of the old ones. (Armstrong)
Yes, if you ride high the drag feels the same but the rail to rail experience is still different.
100cm mast needs roughly 314cm of travel when leaned all the way to the right to travel all the way to the left. (Aactually less depending on board width, foil span, depth of mast, etc).
75cm mast needs roughly 235cm of travel for the same rail to rail experience.
So yes, you're right the response should be the same when high but when people report feeling disconnected from the foil on long masts it's likely because their mind and body want to move at a certain speed which both masts can do, but the distance traveled has to be further on the longer mast so it feels slower, delayed, disconnected.
Select to expand quotedorothyinste said..
Can anyone provide pros or cons with regards to wing foiling in waves with the 95cm or longer masts?
I frequently switch between 103cm and 95cm masts for winging in waves. The short mast is easy to get used to, just fly the board a little lower. Going back to the long mast usually takes me about 5 or maybe 10 minutes to get used to the longer mast, then it can be a lot of fun. The long mast is obviously better for riding in confused seas. But I guess you are more interested in what happens on wave faces.
If you are a front foot biased rider, then you probably naturally carve turn by leading with your upper body, then hips, then front foot, and the foil follows. So to S-turn, the process is repeated each way. And if doing this with a long mast, then there will be a delay to get your body up-and-over from one side to the other. Most riders wont like this added delay, but I think there is another way.
If you get a hydroplane which steers rapidly in response to roll change (eg. just rocking your feet/ankles), then you can plan your turns a little earlier and counter-steer the foil out to the opposite side you want to turn, while you body is more stationary. As your body falls in the direction you want to turn, you begin to roll the hydroplane back and start carving the turn. It only works well if the hydroplane quickly generates horizontal lift when rolled to the side. I find it helps if I think about my foil travelling over a lot more water than my body. Make the foil do the distance. I feel that the longer mast helps to keep higher water speed over a small foil. I cannot imagine it'll work with a slow or wide span foil. Or a hydroplane where you need to lead with your body and front foot to turn it.
One other thing I notice with a long mast, is that in confused or messy waves, if I'm riding low on the mast at some point, with the hydroplane quite deep, then the water is often moving differently own there to what I'm seeing on the water surface, so pitch/lift changes can be a little unexpected. If I go from say an 85 to 103cm mast, then this effect is very noticable. It reminds me to keep the hydroplane closer to the surface.
