I don't think people in Australia realise where we are headed, the most expensive unreliable power in the world as we push towards this economic, social and enviromental disaster called net zero. I'll put my CT hat on here, the whole thing is scam .
Meanwhile increasing amounts of coal gets burned year on year on year, just the place it gets burned has changed. Seriously WTF .
And most people think it's just electricity.Its a scam and a religion.No one is actually going to do it.
The problem with Sky Lies is that they ignore the facts. Australia has cheaper electricity than almost all of Europe
And they ignore the pipeline of projects that is being built.
Here is an overview from Renew Economy
reneweconomy.com.au/wind-solar-and-battery-pipeline-albanese-better-not-stuff-up-bowens-excellent-tenure/#google_vignette
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
The problem with Sky Lies is that they ignore the facts. Australia has cheaper electricity than almost all of Europe
Not cheap enough to mine bitcoin for profit.
I think the net zero thing is bs also. Maybe just a nice target that the world agreed on. Something to aspire to rather than adhear to. Doesn't make much sense to a country like Australia when carbon exports not counted.
However, it's better to aspire towards non polution than dismissing net zero. Like everything else, it's not black and white. Most people are in a shade of grey.
Who knows what to believe in articles like this? For instance. The strain on the electrical distribution system
"Every ev is like adding one extra house in the street." The average house uses 18.7kWh per day. The average car does 33 km/day. A Tesla does 100km on 14.0 kWh = 4.7 kWh per day. ie. 4 evs equal 1 extra house.
One in 7 houses have a swimming pool. 8,000 to 15,000 kWh per year! Ban swimming pools, when everybody goes ev, the distribution grid is fine as it is.
Don't know don't care about net zero.
But what I do know is that EVs are a hoot to drive. We have 2 ICE cars and 1 EV car between me, my wife and my 17 year old. Everybody fights over who gets to drive the EV every day. For long trips where we travel as a family it's a no brainer , we always choose the EV as it is so much more comfortable on long drives too. In the 10 months we've owned it we've driven to Atlanta twice, DC once, Miami twice, Sarasota twice, Augusta once. Worst wait was at a supercharger in Jacksonville that was broken but we didn't realize for a few minutes because it was charging, just really slowly. Moved to the supercharger next to it and we were on our way again in 15 minutes.
Many hotels here in USA have free slow charging for customers so plug it in before going to bed, drive off with a full tank in the morning. Great car to drive and cheaper than gas (gas is about $2.70 per gallon near me currently).
Select to expand quotebjw said..
It sounds like you're suggesting the merit of cheap coal.
I think we should go Nuclear, if we are going to have expensive electricity it should at least work.
I am bothered by thousands of wind towers in national parks on ridge's along the great divide and solar farms occupying thousands of acre's of farming land. I think the environmental damage they cause is not justified by the power they produce.
Select to expand quoteIan K said..
Who knows what to believe in articles like this? For instance. The strain on the electrical distribution system
"Every ev is like adding one extra house in the street." The average house uses 18.7kWh per day. The average car does 33 km/day. A Tesla does 100km on 14.0 kWh = 4.7 kWh per day. ie. 4 evs equal 1 extra house.
One in 7 houses have a swimming pool. 8,000 to 15,000 kWh per year! Ban swimming pools, when everybody goes ev, the distribution grid is fine as it is.
Is that the way it works, most pools run during the day when everyone is at work and the solar panels (if they have them) are working best.
Cars need to be charged at night when people return home from work, I have two adult kids at home, like many households these days the kids stay longer at home therefore 3 cars would need charging at my place. I could only do one at at time, I would probably need a fast charger in order to charge 3 cars in the evening, that would require an electrical upgrade for sure. I think most households have more than one car.
I think your under estimating the problem. I am not sure if that is deliberate or just a lack of understanding
and meanwhile while we argue about EVs vs ICE cars etc etc the amount of coal getting burned keeps going up every year. All we are doing in reality, on a global scale, is shifting wealth.
Select to expand quotecammd said..Ian K said..
Who knows what to believe in articles like this? For instance. The strain on the electrical distribution system
"Every ev is like adding one extra house in the street." The average house uses 18.7kWh per day. The average car does 33 km/day. A Tesla does 100km on 14.0 kWh = 4.7 kWh per day. ie. 4 evs equal 1 extra house.
One in 7 houses have a swimming pool. 8,000 to 15,000 kWh per year! Ban swimming pools, when everybody goes ev, the distribution grid is fine as it is.
Is that the way it works, most pools run during the day when everyone is at work and the solar panels (if they have them) are working best.
Cars need to be charged at night when people return home from work, I have two adult kids at home, like many households these days the kids stay longer at home therefore 3 cars would need charging at my place. I could only do one at at time, I would probably need a fast charger in order to charge 3 cars in the evening, that would require an electrical upgrade for sure. I think most households have more than one car.
I think your under estimating the problem. I am not sure if that is deliberate or just a lack of understanding
and meanwhile while we argue about EVs vs ICE cars etc etc the amount of coal getting burned keeps going up every year. All we are doing in reality, on a global scale, is shifting wealth.
I would think most pool power is consumed offpeak, I've heard noisy pool pumps while trying to sleep, and heaters would go at night too.
But the context of the argument was that the distribution grid won't handle evs. And that just one ev = one extra house. A lot of pools and evs will be run on solar. That's good, because we need somewhere to dump excess solar on sunny days. Either way, yes there may be big problems, but why drag the distribution grid into the argument it if it won't need a massive upgrade? We transitioned from no homes having a pool to one in 7 having a pool. And those one in 7 pools needed very close to the same amount of extra power as everybody having an ev will.
Select to expand quotecammd said...
" All we are doing in reality, on a global scale, is shifting wealth."
I have been shifting wealth for decades now. I had kids.
ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-primary-energy
Where is this Net Zero.Even wood and dung is used at a higher rate today than in 1850.Fossil fuels were the replacement for that as a reference.
Where do you get your meat?
I wouldn't risk Coles, ALDI or even Woolworths Bovaer and grain fed poison.
Boycott Coles and ALDI, we don't want animals that take medication to lower farts.
I like farts
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..
The problem with Sky Lies is that they ignore the facts. Australia has cheaper electricity than almost all of Europe
And they ignore the pipeline of projects that is being built.
Here is an overview from Renew Economy
reneweconomy.com.au/wind-solar-and-battery-pipeline-albanese-better-not-stuff-up-bowens-excellent-tenure/#google_vignette
Yes, Europe is the home of the Nut Zero suicide pact .
Select to expand quotesnoidberg said..
Net zero means no life on earth.
We are the carbon they want to eliminate.
It depends on what you ask the AI bot...
"ChatGPT said:
Bovaer is a feed additive designed to reduce methane emissions from livestock, particularly cattle. Here are its key advantages:
1. Significant Methane ReductionReduces methane emissions by about 30% for dairy cows and up to 90% for beef cattle.Works by inhibiting an enzyme in the rumen that produces methane during digestion.
2. Quick and EffectiveStarts working immediately after being added to the feed.Effects are sustained as long as it's consistently used.
3. Environmental ImpactHelps lower the carbon footprint of livestock farming.Contributes to meeting global climate targets by reducing agricultural greenhouse gas emissions.
4. No Negative Impact on Animal Health or ProductivityStudies show no adverse effects on milk production, quality, or animal health.Maintains feed efficiency and nutrient absorption.
5. Ease of UseEasily mixed with regular cattle feed.Requires only a small dose per cow daily.6. Regulatory ApprovalsApproved for use in several regions, including Europe, and continues to gain global acceptance.
7. Market and Brand BenefitsHelps farmers meet sustainability certifications and standards.Enhances the environmental reputation of dairy and meat products.By reducing methane emissions, Bovaer offers a practical solution to one of agriculture's major environmental challenges.
Oh Jesus, Sky News, nuf said. Who tf watches that crap, apart from cammd obviously?
Select to expand quoteRango said..Mr Milk said..
The problem with Sky Lies is that they ignore the facts. Australia has cheaper electricity than almost all of Europe
And they ignore the pipeline of projects that is being built.
Here is an overview from Renew Economy
reneweconomy.com.au/wind-solar-and-battery-pipeline-albanese-better-not-stuff-up-bowens-excellent-tenure/#google_vignette
Yes, Europe is the home of the Nut Zero suicide pact .
Electricity prices in Europe are controlled by gas prices
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352484723013057
Abstract
The EU energy and climate policy revolves around enhancing energy security and affordability, while reducing the environmental impacts of energy use. The European energy transition has been at the centre of debate following the post-pandemic surge in power prices in 2021 and the energy crisis following the 2022 Russia-Ukraine war. Understanding the extent to which electricity prices depend on fossil fuel prices (specifically natural gas) is key to guiding the future of energy policy in Europe. To this end, we quantify the role of fossil-fuelled vs. low-carbon electricity generation in setting wholesale electricity prices in each EU-27 country plus Great Britain (GB) and Norway during 2015-2021. We apply econometric analysis and use sub/hourly power system data to estimate the marginal share of each electricity generation type. The results show that fossil fuel-based power plants set electricity prices in Europe at approximately 58% of the time (natural gas 39%) while generating only 34% of electricity (natural gas 18%) a year. The energy transition has made natural gas the main electricity price setter in Europe, with gas determining electricity prices for more than 80% of the hours in 2021 in several countries such as Belgium, GB, Greece, Italy, and the Netherlands. Hence, Europe's electricity markets are highly exposed to the geopolitical risk of gas supply and natural gas price volatility, and the economic risk of currency exchange.
They were warned of the Russian gas deal back in 2018.
If you watched the doco it explains that the highest cost generator when needed sets the price of all no matter how little of that generation is required but you need 100% grid capacity of that alternate system on hand when wind and solar fails and it always will.
Select to expand quoteGasHazard said..
Oh Jesus, Sky News, nuf said. Who tf watches that crap, apart from cammd obviously?
edit: "Who tf watches that crap" apart from me, over 5M subscribers do,
I think main stream media is on the decline, maybe a better question is who still watches Nine News or the ABC .
That aside, attack the content if you think its BS.
Select to expand quoteRango said..
They were warned of the Russian gas deal back in 2018.
If you watched the doco it explains that the highest cost generator when needed sets the price of all no matter how little of that generation is required but you need 100% grid capacity of that alternate system on hand when wind and solar fails and it always will.
So Europe has the highest electricity prices as citied by Mr Milk, 80% of the time that price its set by the price of gas ( in a renewable system) as cited by Mr Milk, we are following the same model as Europe.
Why would Mr Milk cite those facts to refute the Sky News report that we have the highest prices in the world. Don't they confirm what the Sky News report is saying, as we move from coal to renewable energy we are using the highest cost energy system.
Am I missing something Mr Milk
Select to expand quotecammd said..GasHazard said..
Oh Jesus, Sky News, nuf said. Who tf watches that crap, apart from cammd obviously?
edit: "Who tf watches that crap" apart from me, over 5M subscribers do,
I think main stream media is on the decline, maybe a better question is who still watches Nine News or the ABC .
That aside, attack the content if you think its BS.
Sky News is owned by News Corp Aust, which is owned by News Corp (US) which is owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns a huge chunk of global media, from Fox right down to your community newspapers. Murdoch's influence is truly massive and, as such, his companies decide what content is mainstream media.
Sky isn't the little guy in the corner fighting for the underdog conservative politics. It's the (propaganda) gorilla in the ring.
Select to expand quotefangman said..cammd said..GasHazard said..
Oh Jesus, Sky News, nuf said. Who tf watches that crap, apart from cammd obviously?
edit: "Who tf watches that crap" apart from me, over 5M subscribers do,
I think main stream media is on the decline, maybe a better question is who still watches Nine News or the ABC .
That aside, attack the content if you think its BS.
Sky News is owned by News Corp Aust, which is owned by News Corp (US) which is owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns a huge chunk of global media, from Fox right down to your community newspapers. Murdoch's influence is truly massive and, as such, his companies decide what content is mainstream media.
Sky isn't the little guy in the corner fighting for the underdog conservative politics. It's the (propaganda) gorilla in the ring.
If its just propaganda pull it apart with your critical thinking skills
Here is a report from the ABC yesterday saying exactly the same thing as Sky News is about the reality of operating a grid high in renewables, is that propaganda too?
www.abc.net.au/news/2024-12-02/aemo-demands-emergency-backstop-to-switch-off-solar/104670332
Select to expand quotecammd said..GasHazard said..
Oh Jesus, Sky News, nuf said. Who tf watches that crap, apart from cammd obviously?
edit: "Who tf watches that crap" apart from me, over 5M subscribers do,
I think main stream media is on the decline, maybe a better question is who still watches Nine News or the ABC .
That aside, attack the content if you think its BS.
Is that a youtube subscriptions figure?
How many are bots? How many actually watch the content?
Select to expand quotecammd said..Rango said..
They were warned of the Russian gas deal back in 2018.
If you watched the doco it explains that the highest cost generator when needed sets the price of all no matter how little of that generation is required but you need 100% grid capacity of that alternate system on hand when wind and solar fails and it always will.
So Europe has the highest electricity prices as citied by Mr Milk, 80% of the time that price its set by the price of gas ( in a renewable system) as cited by Mr Milk, we are following the same model as Europe.
Why would Mr Milk cite those facts to refute the Sky News report that we have the highest prices in the world. Don't they confirm what the Sky News report is saying, as we move from coal to renewable energy we are using the highest cost energy system.
Am I missing something Mr Milk
Yes. Energy storage systems are being built in a big way.
Also, the NEM pricing system isn't set down on one of Moses' tablets, so the highest cost marginal electricity source doesn't have to set the price for the whole spot market (a lot of generation is presold at fixed prices). The rules can be changed.
I'm not across the detail of the capacity investment scheme, but I understand it is aimed at ensuring that last, priciest bit of generation has its price constrained in return for a minimum price the rest of the time.
I am having a diverse experience of the "energy transition"
On one hand I work in an associated industry, and so the once in a generation infrastructure build, represents a significant opportunity. The flip side of the opportunity is the speed and lack of planning is costing us (as the tax payer) significantly more than it should - Exhibit A Project Energy Connect
Additionally, the lead times required to meet the deadline of 2030, mean that poor choices are being made in relation to planning. Example - Hunter Transmission Project should be running through the valley floor either adjacent to the Hunter Expressway or co located with existing Transmission lines- but that would require having hundreds of property owners to deal with in the acquisition phase, which would delay delivery - so the solution is to traverse State Forests which will impact far less owners (less than 30) but result in clearing around 5 times the amount of vegetation of alternate routes.
I happen to own a bush block on the route. The customer and stakeholder engagement (cse) spin is large and the actual engagement minimal.
A demonstration of the "due diligence" missing from the process is energy authority showing us indicative tower locations over the edge of cliffs, or telling us they would access a tower site via a road that doesn't exist (it does on paper and does on the ground until the "road" goes over a cliff).
I agree we need to transition away from the black stuff, but my experience in the way we are going about it is that we are paying a hefty price ( project stacking / poor planning / poor route selections) and the best outcome for the environment (farming and biodiversity) is being ignored in the sake of a silly timeline
Select to expand quoteMr Milk said..cammd said..Rango said..
They were warned of the Russian gas deal back in 2018.
If you watched the doco it explains that the highest cost generator when needed sets the price of all no matter how little of that generation is required but you need 100% grid capacity of that alternate system on hand when wind and solar fails and it always will.
So Europe has the highest electricity prices as citied by Mr Milk, 80% of the time that price its set by the price of gas ( in a renewable system) as cited by Mr Milk, we are following the same model as Europe.
Why would Mr Milk cite those facts to refute the Sky News report that we have the highest prices in the world. Don't they confirm what the Sky News report is saying, as we move from coal to renewable energy we are using the highest cost energy system.
Am I missing something Mr Milk
Yes. Energy storage systems are being built in a big way.
Also, the NEM pricing system isn't set down on one of Moses' tablets, so the highest cost marginal electricity source doesn't have to set the price for the whole spot market (a lot of generation is presold at fixed prices). The rules can be changed.
I'm not across the detail of the capacity investment scheme, but I understand it is aimed at ensuring that last, priciest bit of generation has its price constrained in return for a minimum price the rest of the time.
1. What energy storage system is being built in a big way in Australia - genuine question, all I can think of Snowy Hydro 2.0
2. You said "The problem with Sky Lies is that they ignore the facts" then you proceeded to confirm what the Sky report was saying. So where are the Sky News Lies you mentioned
Don't panic.
Albo is going to cut our power bills by $275. So you don't have to worry about your sunday roast costing $100 any more.
Select to expand quotecammd said...
1. What energy storage system is being built in a big way in Australia
Large batteries are being built in quite a 'big' way.
When I first heard they were building a 'big' battery I assumed it was like the big banana or the big merino.
Turns out I was half right. They are big batteries, but with small energy storage capacity.
