Forums > Sailing General

Opinions?

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Created by garymalmgren 5 months ago, 5 Aug 2024
D3
WA, 1092 posts
14 Aug 2024 6:43AM
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Also, noting that the most recent EPIRBs, SARTs, MOB devices (like PLBs,) and even flares can now transmit in the AIS VHF bands, there is even greater utility to having a proper functioning AIS set up on board.

Bananabender
QLD, 1603 posts
14 Aug 2024 10:59AM
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IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc. and people just can't be bothered. Perhaps if a licence was not required boat manufacturers would instal such as standard. I notice that quite a few boats have the NEBO app. as well as or In lieu of ais. It cost nothing tracks and transmits locations of anyone with it . I know of one boat club that uses it when they go on group voyages to keep track of each other and for family at home to follow them . Mind you I don't think they travel between dusk and dawn .

Toph
WA, 1847 posts
14 Aug 2024 9:50AM
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Bananabender said..
IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc.



Actually that's a bit of a fallacy. You only require a license to OPERATE a VHF. You can get a MMSI, independent of your license status.
It is fair to say though that AMSA make applying for a MMSI a hell of a lot easier if you DO have a license.
There has been talk for year to remove the license requirements for VHF and especially now that 27MHz is no longer monitored, but we all know how slow these wheels turn

garymalmgren
1228 posts
14 Aug 2024 10:39AM
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we all know how slow these wheels turn
Ahh, but at least they turn in Oz.

In Japan almost NO small leisure or smaller fishing vessels have VHF, AIS or even EPIRBS.
Why?
During the war the Japanese military restricted all radio communications to Military use vessels.
This was stop spies transmitting and to prevent vessels that did not have access to the secrets codes from transmitting.
They never got around to loosening up on that control.

A VHF license will set you back $1.200 and has to be reviewed periodically. It is a hard 100 question test with a practical session and the testers are notorious for failing (ex- Navy guys)
There is no difference between the different radio systems . They all fall under commercial use.
Part of the test is semaphore (merrily waving flags).
A VHF radio has to be professionally installed and will set you back around $1000.

In 1988 a Japanese submarine ran down a tour fishing boat resulting in 30 deaths.
www.deseret.com/1988/7/24/18772850/1-dead-29-lost-as-submarine-sinks-fishing-boat-near-tokyo/

When I got my boat license here in Japan my instructor had been on that sub. He said that they were frantically sending radio signals to the fishing boat but it wasn't equipped with a radio. Since then the Japanese Navy and Coast Guard have been lobbing to have VHF mandatory.
35 years and the wheels have not turned.

As for getting an MMSI. Get outta here.
gary

wongaga
VIC, 635 posts
14 Aug 2024 3:32PM
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Bananabender said..
IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc. and people just can't be bothered. Perhaps if a licence was not required boat manufacturers would instal such as standard. I notice that quite a few boats have the NEBO app. as well as or In lieu of ais. It cost nothing tracks and transmits locations of anyone with it . I know of one boat club that uses it when they go on group voyages to keep track of each other and for family at home to follow them . Mind you I don't think they travel between dusk and dawn .


Anyone can legally transmit on VHF in an emergency. The VHF course is not onerous.

Bananabender
QLD, 1603 posts
14 Aug 2024 3:46PM
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wongaga said..

Bananabender said..
IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc. and people just can't be bothered. Perhaps if a licence was not required boat manufacturers would instal such as standard. I notice that quite a few boats have the NEBO app. as well as or In lieu of ais. It cost nothing tracks and transmits locations of anyone with it . I know of one boat club that uses it when they go on group voyages to keep track of each other and for family at home to follow them . Mind you I don't think they travel between dusk and dawn .



Anyone can legally transmit on VHF in an emergency. The VHF course is not onerous.


Exactly , anyone can transmit on vhf ,and everyone does , however when it comes to getting a licence why bother the expense and time wasted.

julesmoto
NSW, 1558 posts
14 Aug 2024 4:46PM
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Bananabender said..
IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc. and people just can't be bothered. Perhaps if a licence was not required boat manufacturers would instal such as standard. I notice that quite a few boats have the NEBO app. as well as or In lieu of ais. It cost nothing tracks and transmits locations of anyone with it . I know of one boat club that uses it when they go on group voyages to keep track of each other and for family at home to follow them . Mind you I don't think they travel between dusk and dawn .


Could you elaborate on the NEBO app capabilities please.

Bananabender
QLD, 1603 posts
14 Aug 2024 5:57PM
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julesmoto said..


Bananabender said..
IMO the major reason 90% of boats do not have ais etc. is because to transmit one needs to get a radio licence , mmsi etc. and people just can't be bothered. Perhaps if a licence was not required boat manufacturers would instal such as standard. I notice that quite a few boats have the NEBO app. as well as or In lieu of ais. It cost nothing tracks and transmits locations of anyone with it . I know of one boat club that uses it when they go on group voyages to keep track of each other and for family at home to follow them . Mind you I don't think they travel between dusk and dawn .




Could you elaborate on the NEBO app capabilities please.



The Nebo.global app. . Is pretty versatile in so far as it is a navigation trip planning app. as well showing not only your position but also the position of all boats worldwide that have the app turned on ,like ais I suppose.
I have only used the basic free one primarily to follow my son inlaw and daughter on their various trips on my ipad from home. Eg. Bne to Syd. or to Whitsunday etc. I was also able to get photos of them going into places like coffs by watching them entering on nebo then taking photos using the various web cams . Here is a shot of current boats with nebo turned on ;white dots with number of boats,
at this marina on the Hawkesbury. If I zoom in each boat is shown and by tapping on each it shows detail which btw can be hidden by the owner.



Here is a pic of the Moody 62 Gin and Tonic on the whitsundays now.



Quixotic
ACT, 111 posts
15 Aug 2024 10:46AM
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So far as I can tell nebo operates on the cellular/mobile network, so no use further out or where there's no coverage even close to shore. Also of limited use to the extent it is active for a minority of boats, as suggested by the Hawkesbury marina image where only a few white circles amidst a lot of other boats. So from my point of view, perhaps useful as more of a social media app (bit like Strava, perhaps, for runners and bike riders), for sharing with other nebo users (including sharing location with shore based family) but not so much for identifying vessels at sea, dodging ships when crossing shipping lanes and keeping an eye on closest likely approach.

julesmoto
NSW, 1558 posts
15 Aug 2024 11:51AM
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Quixotic said..
So far as I can tell nebo operates on the cellular/mobile network, so no use further out or where there's no coverage even close to shore. Also of limited use to the extent it is active for a minority of boats, as suggested by the Hawkesbury marina image where only a few white circles amidst a lot of other boats. So from my point of view, perhaps useful as more of a social media app (bit like Strava, perhaps, for runners and bike riders), for sharing with other nebo users (including sharing location with shore based family) but not so much for identifying vessels at sea, dodging ships when crossing shipping lanes and keeping an eye on closest likely approach.


Thanks that's what I was afraid of

Bananabender
QLD, 1603 posts
15 Aug 2024 4:55PM
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julesmoto said..

Quixotic said..
So far as I can tell nebo operates on the cellular/mobile network, so no use further out or where there's no coverage even close to shore. Also of limited use to the extent it is active for a minority of boats, as suggested by the Hawkesbury marina image where only a few white circles amidst a lot of other boats. So from my point of view, perhaps useful as more of a social media app (bit like Strava, perhaps, for runners and bike riders), for sharing with other nebo users (including sharing location with shore based family) but not so much for identifying vessels at sea, dodging ships when crossing shipping lanes and keeping an eye on closest likely approach.



Thanks that's what I was afraid of

As I said I don't know much about it but I don't think nebo is for use other than social purposes . If you did not have ais its not a bad app. to use as a group or to keep the family at home updated . Not a bad app for ts I would think. For example a Riviera group use it on their trips as not all have ais. and it enables them to keep track and communicate. I was able to easily follow daughter when they went to Syd. in their Riv. 6000 with so few boats using it in Aust. Judging from below it uses GPS as well as cellular .
I never thought much about putting it on my ts until now .
'The placement: treat the nebolink like an antenna
Put it in a good position to send and receive both GPS and cell phone tower signals. Make sure there is nothing dense (like metal) between the nebolink and the sky, this will allow for clear GPS signals which allows for optimal logging performance. The higher above the waterline the better.'

Chris 249
NSW, 3420 posts
15 Aug 2024 8:30PM
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D3 said..
Chris 249 said..


p3p4p5 said..
Risk your life and safety for 50 dollars. I think not. What sort of spurious logic is this where you can afford a yacht and then when it comes to the essential safety equipment you dont want to invest in quality equipment and penny pinch with hack jobs. Then this very guy has to pay marine fees that amount to 100 to 180 Euros a day for cruising in Europe. I have no time for this kind of stupidity especially when it its primary safety equipment that has to work at all costs. I can foresee a day when the battery goes flat and the THINGAMAJIG stops working and a ship runs him down when he "thought that it was working and ok" Maybe he will be the guy that wants to win the Darwin award by climbing Mount Everest with Aliexpress equipment. Whats next, is he going to turn a 50 cent kids sparkler into a rescue flare?




But it's not "essential safety equipment". People have sailed yachts for many decades without it and lived to tell the tale. When was the last yacht run down around Australia, for example?

Yes, Jessica Watson hit a ship but it was in broad daylight IIRC so there was no need to rely on AIS. That was 14 years ago. It's not "stupidity" to think that it is not "essential" to have something to guard against an incident that occurs about once every 14 years around here, and not even very often around France.

Getting run down by a ship an incredibly rare event, and therefore simple logic (and proper risk analysis) states that it should be considered as such, and a partial cure for an extremely low risk is not "essential".

In the USA, which has areas with dense fog and dense shipping, a study of 11 years of sailing deaths showed NO deaths through poor visibility, which is the only time AIS is anything remotely like "essential". In contrast there were 17 deaths from people intentionally getting off yachts (ie to get a dinghy or clear a prop) and 64 deaths from falling overboard.

So AIS is clearly NOT essential - there seems to have been NO deaths that AIS could have prevented in that extensive US sample of over a decade. And the reality is that time and money are limited, and therefore the rational approach is to concentrate on addressing the problems that DO cause deaths - and among yachties that is overwhelmingly going over the side, capsizing, and probably the usual health issues. Even getting hit by a prop caused more deaths among yachties, so a proper evidence-based logic-driven approach may well ignore AIS in favour of putting in a propguard.

As yachties, overwhelmingly our actual significant risks seem to going overboard and not getting enough exercise. It is more logical to address those problems than the vanishingly small risk of getting run down in conditions where an AIS could have been the difference between an accident occurring or not.



Look, you make some good points about safety in yachting as a whole, something that can be easily missed or overlooked when discussing the latest topic to be seen as critical.

On the whole, I would like yachties to become more professional in their approach to this maritime pastime and safety on board and at sea. Most boats aren't like a modern car where you can just jump on and take it for a spin.

According to the ATSB back in 2015, over the previous 26 years there had been 41 Collisions between Trading Vessels and Small vessels (not just sailing)on Australias coasts. The investigations identified that improper lookout and not taking early action were the consistent and continuing contributors to these collisions.

As someone who knows how hard it is to maintain a good lookout while relaxing or racing on a yacht as well as how hard it is to see and identify the intentions of said yachts from a busy wheelhouse, I would really like AIS to be much more widespread.

AIS doesn't absolve anyone from maintaining a good look out, but it can really help identify and assist with dealing appropriately with situations before they pose a problem.

If only 5% of Bulk Carrier collisions are with Sailing Vessels, AIS set correctly will certainly reduce the likelihood of your being in that 5%.
A slow moving, 10m yacht can be very hard to see until relatively close, especially dusk til dawn when nav lights only need to be visible a couple of miles.


It's interesting to hear the very valuable viewpoint from a professional. It's probably that we tend to approach risk from different angles. I can understand how hard it is to see a yacht from a bridge but I've never really had any issues seeing a big ship from a yacht, and I'm very aware of the hazard of colliding with small craft like tinnies or trawlers.

I can certainly understand and respect the viewpoint of people like you who really value AIS; it probably gets down to very personal issues of risk assessment and positive and negative traits in personality (such has having good night vision and situational awareness at night but being liable to get frustrated by technology) and how they relate to watch keeping. Different strokes may suit different folks - but we agree that keeping a good lookout is critical. I just struggle to see how people so often fail to see other craft (or land) and I'm concerned that many of us could fall into the trap that (from some reports) lead to Shockwave's tragic grounding on Flinders Islet, where some say that the very experienced and expert crew were relying on problematic technology rather than visual piloting and other methods.

D3
WA, 1092 posts
16 Aug 2024 5:25AM
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To be fair, plenty of people run aground, collide with other vessels or structures without having any technology on board.

I agree wholeheartedly that if technology is on board for the purpose of aiding to keep a vessel safe, that the users need to be very aware of its limitations and how to set it up correctly.

This is a difficult thing to achieve in a recreational setting, it's proving difficult to achieve 100% even in the commercial world.

The operator manual for our AIS clearly states how it can aid watch keeping but also why it cannot be replaced by the requirements of normal watch keeping (looking out the window etc) due to various reasons like not every vessel carrying AIS.

Our chart plotter always requires me to acknowledge the warning that it cannot be used as a primary means of navigation and does not replace paper charts when I turn it on.



Regarding personal ability to conduct a proper risk assessment in how to keep your vessel safe, yes personal issues and experience plays heavily in that space. But I think people also need to have a grasp how much is in the mix.
Having recently had the opportunity to watch a RAN patrol boat crew in action, it just highlights that although they have all the toys they still work hard to track contacts visually and don't rely on GPS to keep the vessel safe.
Their bridge routines may seem over the top to most recreational boaties, but it is a demonstration of just how busy it can be to meet your obligations under COLREGS.



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"Opinions?" started by garymalmgren