Select to expand quoteAzureF305 said..
Tonight I installed a 'fluro' light in the companionway steps - see the pic
wait for it........
I told you I was bored!!
I really like the clear storm board, but the light is just, I have to say it a bright idea
Select to expand quote
boty said..saltiest1 said..
She's getting there. Deck done now.
nice
Soon to start below. THAT will be a slow exercise. 
I bought 3 Aldi one kilo fire extinguishers for my main saloon. $15 each. The old ones are well out of date and scruffy looking!
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
I bought 3 Aldi one kilo fire extinguishers for my main saloon. $15 each. The old ones are well out of date and scruffy looking!
Yeah, something you don't think much about - until you need them!!
What better way to while away a few coronavirus hours...days than troubleshooting boats!
Since dropping the keel back in, I have been chasing an electrical gremlin. Ram works fine, but pressing either the keel up or down button will result in relays clicking on and off but no hydraulic pump kicking in. So no keel movement.
Sigh.
Chasing wires led me to discover a PLC under the cabin table that controls all of the keel hydraulics and operation. Ahah! Likely culprit!
I didn't have a wiring diagram this detailed so the first order of business was to chase wires and create a wiring diagram. The second order of business was to research the PLC and understand the programming.
Result? Everything was perfect....except....press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
It turns out that if I leave the PLC output Q1 connected and press the up or down button, the PLC has a hissy fit and turns off all outputs. If I disconnect the Q1 output off the hydraulic motor solenoid, everything starts working fine (except the hydraulic motor of course as I just disconnected its control circuit.) If I replace the PLC output with a small battery pack and connect to the pos and neg control lugs of the hydraulic motor solenoid, the solenoid engages and the pump turns on and runs fine. So the big cables from the battery to the hydraulic motor are fine, as is the pump solenoid itself.
My guess is I have a short somewhere which is pulling more than the 8A DC power supply for the PLC outputs, but I have spent two days testing every component and wire in the control and power circuits and everything is peachy, not a hint of an issue. So the only silver lining at this stage is I have a more detailed understanding of the sequence of events that need to happen to make a lifting keel function. It just doesn't function...yet 
.
Some of the supporting info gleaned from the past weeks efforts. What would be doing if we weren't working on boats?
Just keep swimming, just keep swimming.....
That sucks after all that. But as you said you know the systems better. Are the batteries fully charged and still ok after the time on the hard. I was on a boat that had problems with the keel and the skipper called the yard,they said push and hold the reset button. We did and it was fine after. Since you have just pulled everything apart you may have to do something like this. It was well hidden so no one would ever push it. It centers the keel and starts again from 0. I am not an expert but what we were told was if the sensors are out the keel has a safety function and wont work.
Also I have had solenoids that sound like they are working but don't. Maybe change one and see.
Again if you get stuck I can call or email them for you. Not sure if they are open. They will want pics and any serial numbers year built etc.
Hi Shaggy.
My guess is I have a short somewhere which is pulling more than the 8A DC power supply for the PLC outputs,
More likely a bad connection resulting in higher resistance than the PLC recognizes. (that is a guess from thousands of kilos away)
The first thing I would do is disconnect Q1 at the PLC and the pump solenoid and run a temporary wire to replace it. (well connected at both ends)
With all of the work you have done on the ram and power unit I suspect that wire some how.
This will give you a clean line from Q1 to pump solenoid.
Next,: This is just a quick fix attempt.
If your lamp is illuminating, you have clean /correct power at Q4.
Disconnect Q4 from PLC.
Disconnect Q1 from PLC.
Connect Q1 wire to Q4 connection point on PLC.
This will give you a clean line from PLC. (Q4) to pump solenoid.
This advise comes with the usual caveats.
All the best
gary
Select to expand quotetarquin1 said..
Again if you get stuck I can call or email them for you. Not sure if they are open. They will want pics and any serial numbers year built etc.
You're a real gent Tarquin, thank you very much. If you ever land in town let me know, I'd like to buy you a beer or two. Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Hi Shaggy.
My guess is I have a short somewhere which is pulling more than the 8A DC power supply for the PLC outputs,
More likely a bad connection resulting in higher resistance than the PLC recognizes. (that is a guess from thousands of kilos away)
The first thing I would do is disconnect Q1 at the PLC and the pump solenoid and run a temporary wire to replace it. (well connected at both ends)
With all of the work you have done on the ram and power unit I suspect that wire some how.
This will give you a clean line from Q1 to pump solenoid.
Next,: This is just a quick fix attempt.
If your lamp is illuminating, you have clean /correct power at Q4.
Disconnect Q4 from PLC.
Disconnect Q1 from PLC.
Connect Q1 wire to Q4 connection point on PLC.
This will give you a clean line from PLC. (Q4) to pump solenoid.
This advise comes with the usual caveats.
All the best
gary
Gary, you must have been reading my mind, and a pretty accurate suggestion considering you are a bazillion miles away!
I swapped the Q1 output to Q4, same result, so that proved Q1 wasn't melted or screwed internally in the PLC.
I was running a few tests and pushed the apocalypse button (I renamed it, cabin fever I think) when I noticed the FM radio rebooted. ??. Looking up the specs, the main DC bus for the hydraulic motor pulls 200 amps which is no small load. I traced the main DC bus cabling , it uses the house batteries not the engine battery as I had drawn it. When i press the apocalypse button it was pulling enough current to shut down the radio which leads me to think I don't have enough DC grunt.
So I'm thinking I might have a battery issue where I'm outstripping the ability of the 200A battery bank. I don't have the ability to measure that , it's a wee bit beyond my multimeter.
I'm picking up 2 new 100AH batteries in the morning, I hope this is it.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Hi Shaggy.
You won't like this suggestion.
You are pushing the Down button? ( I mean the keel is trying to go down, not up)
I realize there are limiting switches for up and down.
.press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
This could be low voltage , not so sure though. You did have the batteries on a charger while on the hard?
I still don't suspect the batteries, because I have recently gone out and bought new batteries only to find the fault elsewhere.
gary
If the solenoid is working but there is not enough grunt, amps to do the job it could be battery or a bad connection as Garry said. Thats why I asked if you were sure the batteries were fully charged. As I said I have had solenoids that sound like they are working but changing it fixed the problem.
Not sure on your setup but have you tried with the shore power on and battery charger,or with the engine running if you have an alternator. This will give you the extra power to see.
Thanks for the offer but don't get back to Oz much these days. Wife and 2 kids makes it an expensive trip.
You can have batteries tested. Maybe an option before buying new ones. A lot of garages here have test machines. Cheaper than going somewhere Nautical where they charge double for the same job.
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Hi Shaggy.
You won't like this suggestion.
You are pushing the Down button? ( I mean the keel is trying to go down, not up)
I realize there are limiting switches for up and down.
.press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
This could be low voltage , not so sure though. You did have the batteries on a charger while on the hard?
I still don't suspect the batteries, because I have recently gone out and bought new batteries only to find the fault elsewhere.
gary
Hi Gary,
I do like the suggestion, I've done stupid things like that before, and sadly probably will again .
Yes I am pushing the right button, as you can see the down solenoid LED indicator and the keel pivots as it goes down, so lots of visual references to stop you going astray.
I agree with you about the batteries, which is why I haven't done them before this. If I am thinking this through correctly there could be zero power on the big DC bus and the PLC shouldn't even know. It's job is to happily switch it's inputs and outputs according to its programming, there is no amperage monitoring by the PLC of the big DC circuit.
So the cause of the flashing screen is still an unknown. I am thinking (hoping?) it is the inrush current for the hydraulic motor draining enough out of old batteries that make it go wonky.
Hmmm... If I had a guy up in the cockpit at the same time, I could use the NKE display as it does monitor current on the bus but only in realtime. That might be worth a try, see if I can detect any funny business.
Cheers!
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..garymalmgren said..
Hi Shaggy.
You won't like this suggestion.
You are pushing the Down button? ( I mean the keel is trying to go down, not up)
I realize there are limiting switches for up and down.
.press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
This could be low voltage , not so sure though. You did have the batteries on a charger while on the hard?
I still don't suspect the batteries, because I have recently gone out and bought new batteries only to find the fault elsewhere.
gary
Hi Gary,
I do like the suggestion, I've done stupid things like that before, and sadly probably will again .
Yes I am pushing the right button, as you can see the down solenoid LED indicator and the keel pivots as it goes down, so lots of visual references to stop you going astray.
I agree with you about the batteries, which is why I haven't done them before this. If I am thinking this through correctly there could be zero power on the big DC bus and the PLC shouldn't even know. It's job is to happily switch it's inputs and outputs according to its programming, there is no amperage monitoring by the PLC of the big DC circuit.
So the cause of the flashing screen is still an unknown. I am thinking (hoping?) it is the inrush current for the hydraulic motor draining enough out of old batteries that make it go wonky.
Hmmm... If I had a guy up in the cockpit at the same time, I could use the NKE display as it does monitor current on the bus but only in realtime. That might be worth a try, see if I can detect any funny business.
Cheers!
Hi Shaggy,
This is my game and if I was home and not doing it tough fishing in Darwin, I could come and sort it out for you. From what I can see it looks very much like a voltage drop problem. As the system has always worked, there will be no problems with cable size and a very slim chance of a bad connection. My guess is the batteries are dropping their bundle under load which is causing the plc to reboot. Plc's very rarely have programming problems. The main thing you normally see are burnt out, output contacts but I don't think that's your problem. I think you are on the right path looking are the battery replacement. To test this you could feed the PLC control circuit off the house batteries, but leave the hydraulic pump feed off the start battery. Hope this is some help.
Select to expand quoteJode5 said..shaggybaxter said..garymalmgren said..
Hi Shaggy.
You won't like this suggestion.
You are pushing the Down button? ( I mean the keel is trying to go down, not up)
I realize there are limiting switches for up and down.
.press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
This could be low voltage , not so sure though. You did have the batteries on a charger while on the hard?
I still don't suspect the batteries, because I have recently gone out and bought new batteries only to find the fault elsewhere.
gary
Hi Gary,
I do like the suggestion, I've done stupid things like that before, and sadly probably will again .
Yes I am pushing the right button, as you can see the down solenoid LED indicator and the keel pivots as it goes down, so lots of visual references to stop you going astray.
I agree with you about the batteries, which is why I haven't done them before this. If I am thinking this through correctly there could be zero power on the big DC bus and the PLC shouldn't even know. It's job is to happily switch it's inputs and outputs according to its programming, there is no amperage monitoring by the PLC of the big DC circuit.
So the cause of the flashing screen is still an unknown. I am thinking (hoping?) it is the inrush current for the hydraulic motor draining enough out of old batteries that make it go wonky.
Hmmm... If I had a guy up in the cockpit at the same time, I could use the NKE display as it does monitor current on the bus but only in realtime. That might be worth a try, see if I can detect any funny business.
Cheers!
Hi Shaggy,
This is my game and if I was home and not doing it tough fishing in Darwin, I could come and sort it out for you. From what I can see it looks very much like a voltage drop problem. As the system has always worked, there will be no problems with cable size and a very slim chance of a bad connection. My guess is the batteries are dropping their bundle under load which is causing the plc to reboot. Plc's very rarely have programming problems. The main thing you normally see are burnt out, output contacts but I don't think that's your problem. I think you are on the right path looking are the battery replacement. To test this you could feed the PLC control circuit off the house batteries, but leave the hydraulic pump feed off the start battery. Hope this is some help.
Hi Jode,
It is, and thank you for the kind offer, I've seen some of your FB posts, it looks like a wise and pretty near prefect bolt hole for the CV19 times, I hope you and your wife are kicking back and enjoying every minute of it!
I'll bite the bullet and splurge on some new batteries tomorrow, the engine battery is only a 80A so not enough grunt to act as a substitute unfortunately. I drew the diagram wrong, it is the house batteries that power the main DC bus for the keel, I got suckered by the engine battery controlling the PLC. Pogo did it that way deliberately I think to make sure you start the engine before playing with the keel and draining your house battery bank.
Btw, I've been meaning to ask for any recommendations you may have for a local diver? I like to support the local talent if at all possible before I drag someone up from over the river.
Don't forget to come home soon, I'm looking forward to following you around in WAGS .....
The man in the cockpit could be your phone set up to film the data you want to see
The man in the cockpit could be your phone set up to film the data you want to see
I love smart simple ideas. Well done Cap yanti!!
gary
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..Jode5 said..shaggybaxter said..garymalmgren said..
Hi Shaggy.
You won't like this suggestion.
You are pushing the Down button? ( I mean the keel is trying to go down, not up)
I realize there are limiting switches for up and down.
.press the button and instead of hearing motors turn on, the PLC turns off all its outputs instead!
Grrr.
This could be low voltage , not so sure though. You did have the batteries on a charger while on the hard?
I still don't suspect the batteries, because I have recently gone out and bought new batteries only to find the fault elsewhere.
gary
Hi Gary,
I do like the suggestion, I've done stupid things like that before, and sadly probably will again .
Yes I am pushing the right button, as you can see the down solenoid LED indicator and the keel pivots as it goes down, so lots of visual references to stop you going astray.
I agree with you about the batteries, which is why I haven't done them before this. If I am thinking this through correctly there could be zero power on the big DC bus and the PLC shouldn't even know. It's job is to happily switch it's inputs and outputs according to its programming, there is no amperage monitoring by the PLC of the big DC circuit.
So the cause of the flashing screen is still an unknown. I am thinking (hoping?) it is the inrush current for the hydraulic motor draining enough out of old batteries that make it go wonky.
Hmmm... If I had a guy up in the cockpit at the same time, I could use the NKE display as it does monitor current on the bus but only in realtime. That might be worth a try, see if I can detect any funny business.
Cheers!
Hi Shaggy,
This is my game and if I was home and not doing it tough fishing in Darwin, I could come and sort it out for you. From what I can see it looks very much like a voltage drop problem. As the system has always worked, there will be no problems with cable size and a very slim chance of a bad connection. My guess is the batteries are dropping their bundle under load which is causing the plc to reboot. Plc's very rarely have programming problems. The main thing you normally see are burnt out, output contacts but I don't think that's your problem. I think you are on the right path looking are the battery replacement. To test this you could feed the PLC control circuit off the house batteries, but leave the hydraulic pump feed off the start battery. Hope this is some help.
Hi Jode,
It is, and thank you for the kind offer, I've seen some of your FB posts, it looks like a wise and pretty near prefect bolt hole for the CV19 times, I hope you and your wife are kicking back and enjoying every minute of it!
I'll bite the bullet and splurge on some new batteries tomorrow, the engine battery is only a 80A so not enough grunt to act as a substitute unfortunately. I drew the diagram wrong, it is the house batteries that power the main DC bus for the keel, I got suckered by the engine battery controlling the PLC. Pogo did it that way deliberately I think to make sure you start the engine before playing with the keel and draining your house battery bank.
Btw, I've been meaning to ask for any recommendations you may have for a local diver? I like to support the local talent if at all possible before I drag someone up from over the river.
Don't forget to come home soon, I'm looking forward to following you around in WAGS .....
Hi Shaggy
I use a local diver. Details are
Vazul Biro
0415 378 954
Select to expand quotecaptainyanti said..
The man in the cockpit could be your phone set up to film the data you want to see
Thanks Captain,
good idea, I shall try that today! Select to expand quoteJo
Hi Shaggy
I use a local diver. Details are
Vazul Biro
0415 378 954
Thanks Jode.
I've got the new batteries in hand and on my way to giving it a try.
Removed the stanchions. Filled the holes and added some glass in spots. Tomorrow I aim to fix the stern deck to hull join. Then sand the deck. Fill more holes. Then start painting later in the week.
Great to see I'm not the only one pottering about the boat Jbarnes! I like the timber bulwarks in thew cockpit, does that work as a back rest?
After replacing the house battery bank with 2x new 100A batteries, the moment of truth had arrived....
Had my fingers crossed as I watched that.
I am almost as happy as you are.
A low battery power lamp signal would have been very handy from the beginning!!
gary
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
Great to see I'm not the only one pottering about the boat Jbarnes! I like the timber bulwarks in thew cockpit, does that work as a back rest?
After replacing the house battery bank with 2x new 100A batteries, the moment of truth had arrived....
.
Very happy for you
Well done Shaggy, no doubt you deserve that Pogo, a sophisticated rig like that needs a thoughtful custodian, with a little help from some fellow Seabreeze thinkers. I'd love to have a lift keel, but in hindsight I'm happy with a fixed keel at 1.95 m on my humble Bav 37. well my latest project was sewing in new clears in my Dodger and Bimini, it turned out ok and I have a renewed admiration for sailmakers and upholsterers
With all the potential covid time I might have a crack at cockpit cushions next, and a big salute to Sailrite, a great little sewing machine!
cheers Richard
Hi Stockie,
I gotta say they look fantastic, you have to be chuffed with that result!
Is sewing with a Sailrite something us mere mortals can do? I've always wanted to give it a go but never tried it.
I'd love to have a go at making a proper boom tent, as I enjoy the design from nothing aspect, but my sewing skills are non -existent .
And yep, Seabreezers are a well of a skills that I feel lucky to have access to, and always freely and readily given to boot.
Cheers!
SB
Gary, yep, wouldn't it just? The problem is the requirement for the engine to be running to move the keel electronically, so the alternator charging masks the draw on the batteries. I did the usual isolation battery test but didn't pick up anything.
I don't really understand if a battery can show ok voltage under light load and then fail under heavy load, I would've thought it would be a linear thing and show up across the board albeit in smaller increments.
I'm nursing a big lump on my head, lesson is don't celebrate by jumping around like a crazed loon inside a boat, cabin roofs are hard .
Thanks BB!
