Thanks Ozzie, your analogy to balancing on a roller, slackline or narrow beam is quite relevant. I didn't thought of it, but now that you explain it, it seems so right.
Note that the first pic of the post is not from me but a friend, lighter and and on a smaller board than me. I have my feet 1" - 2" more apart, I guess the actual position depends a lot on each board and is quite personal. Pro riders on their toothpicks have their feet very close to the stringer.
Good thread, it seems I've been doing a lot of what others have said.
My only advice is get a small board and go spin around on it in flat water for a few months... 
Thats how I mastered my 7"6 Shroomy 
Select to expand quoteSunnyBouy said..
My only advice is get a small board and go spin around on it in flat water for a few months...
Well, I definitely think that if you are aware of your feet position, months can be reduced to days :-)
Select to expand quotecolas said..
Thanks Ozzie, your analogy to balancing on a roller, slackline or narrow beam is quite relevant. I didn't thought of it, but now that you explain it, it seems so right.
Note that the first pic of the post is not from me but a friend, lighter and and on a smaller board than me. I have my feet 1" - 2" more apart, I guess the actual position depends a lot on each board and is quite personal. Pro riders on their toothpicks have their feet very close to the stringer.
Colas,That is the conclusion that I have come to. Having a board as small as mine forces you to rethink how you approach your paddling in the preparation phase.I think what we need more of are videos of the pro's in the lead up phase and how they control their balance.
I have formed the view that getting as close to the stringer is the preferable option. This takes time however.One thing I noticed today when I went out is that I felt me feet were close but when I looked down they werent as close as I had
hoped. It seems that your body naturally tries to adjust to old habits.Once I readjusted I found if my knees bent inwards I could start to feel the control coming from the insides of my knees rolling
up and down and against one another. I hope I have explained that well. What this means is that you start to control your balance
with your knees first and then if necessary your upper body comes into play.Right now my whole focus is to go out in difficult conditions and get this right. Its about building muscle memory.I think the other component that needs to be mentioned is confidence. Falling in the water repeatedly does affect you on a mental level
and it does affect your performance.If I can get a colleague to come out I'm hoping to get a video of me - struggling no doubt - applying this very technique.
It will give me a good reference point as well to gauge how I am going.
Select to expand quoteghost4man said..
what we need more of are videos of the pro's in the lead up phase and how they control their balance.
[...]
I felt me feet were close but when I looked down they werent as close as I had
hoped.
Kahei is impressive for this, he paddles with the heels in contact, at the start of
www.instagram.com/p/BvnM2uoAea-/
But he is on a very wide board for his level.
I think that trying to have the feet touching one another may be a good thing to practice, but is counter-productive in your surfing sessions, as it is so hard in chop that it will kill your confidence, and I do not think it is actually needed. As you say, if you do not feel confident, your paddle power decreases, and you do not engage your whole body into the drop on takeoff.
This said, the ideal position seems very close to the stringer. Much closer than what feels natural.
I was out today on my 6ft 8" foil board. Fell in heaps! Tried lots of stances but found the toes of my front foot over the stringer & back foot beside the stringer to be the best balance for me. Probably because I am more used to this stance.
But once I shifted to surf stance to catch a wave I would fall off prematurely & obviously missed the wave.
The water surface wasn't affected by wind but was affected by moving water coming out of a lake entrance and also a side swell like the wake of a small boat going past. I thought it would be quite easy to balance but was I wrong!
I found myself tipping to one side & then on trying to correct it the board stayed at that angle for a few seconds before either falling off or rolling back to the other side & staying there for a few seconds also.
And then if I didn't tip sideways I would sometimes bury the boards nose under water or bury the tail underwater.
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted. Like doing a thousand push ups getting back on the board! Haaa!
I am starting to think that a previous session 2 days before in different conditions with strong side wind chop & swell as well as chop bouncing back in the opposite direction has affected my muscle memory to a point of failing stability today. Or maybe fatigue as well.
But in saying this. It is a new smaller board that I may have to get used to.
Select to expand quoteSeajuice said..
Then my mind would get lazy & say just fall off. Which I did.
I am absolutely exhausted.
So true, the mental energy needed on unstable boards may mean you do not have any juice left once on the wave.
As for foil boards, I do not know if my theory above applies, their balance is different. What is focus is on always having some speed so the mast is acting as a huge stabilizer, but I always had wide (30") foil boards anyways. But the foil is very sensitive to water movements, more than mere chop.
Yes Colas. I remembered your previous comments on water movement affecting foil stability. And yes this day was more water movement. Felt like someone was pushing & pulling the foil sideways. Haa! So most times I would face against the sideswell. But as soon as I turned to start paddling for a wave I would get tipped over. The wind chop didnt seem to bother me the other day.
Also I think the burying of the tail & nose of board was my fore & aft stance being too wide forward & back due to being in surf stance for too long. So I think I was burying the nose when correcting rail rise with my front foot. And burying the tail when correcting the rise of the opposite rail. This would cause my body centre weight shifting too far to front or back.
The other thing that I should work on more is squatting down further as soon as stability diminishes. And as you do. Get in the fencing stance when paddling for a wave.
At this stage my legs are too lazy to bend more!
Select to expand quoteSeajuice said..
Yes Colas. I remembered your previous comments on water movement affecting foil stability. And yes this day was more water movement. Felt like someone was pushing & pulling the foil sideways. Haa! So most times I would face against the sideswell. But as soon as I turned to start paddling for a wave I would get tipped over. The wind chop didnt seem to bother me the other day.
Also I think the burying of the tail & nose of board was my fore & aft stance being too wide forward & back due to being in surf stance for too long. So I think I was burying the nose when correcting rail rise with my front foot. And burying the tail when correcting the rise of the opposite rail. This would cause my body centre weight shifting too far to front or back.
The other thing that I should work on more is squatting down further as soon as stability diminishes. And as you do. Get in the fencing stance when paddling for a wave.
At this stage my legs are too lazy to bend more!
Colas and Seajuice,
As one is oft to do I have found some success with the following.My minion has a very small sweet spot. I find just moving my back foot what seems to be a miniscule amount can sink the back of the board too much which causes instability.I have found the following very useful however. By bringing the feet closer together it brings into play a ski stance. If you have a look at a lot of skiers you will notice that they tend to bring the knees in closer together. What this does is create a type of triangle which has really improved upon stability. It doesnt seem like much but try it. By doing this what happens is that when you want to readjust you simply move BOTH knees together at the same time whilst rolling from one foot to the other. And I mean quite literally that this is a rolling action.Does this make sense. It also seems to lock that area of the body for movement whilst keeping your head still.I think this is one of the crucial elements that is missing in the conversation. I have been practising on one of those AOK mediballs in the gym. The secret to stabilising on the board is to focus on keeping your head still whilst the rest of the body moves. Try the following. Stand with one
foot lifted off the ground. Now move that foot any which way around BUT keeping the head still. You will find it a lot easier doing it this way.I think one of the first recommendations ever given to me when supping for the first time was to bring my focus to the horizon and not look down and try to balance myself. That requires the head to remain in the fixed position whilst the other parts of the body move around it.
Select to expand quoteghost4man said..
I find just moving my back foot what seems to be a miniscule amount can sink the back of the board too much which causes instability
This why I advise for the fore/aft stability to have your weight mostly on the front foot, so that moving the back foot has less consequences. You want to be like a bike on a side kickstand: all the weight is on the wheels (front foot), and the kickstand (rear foot) can go far away to provide more stability.
Moving your back foot closer is nice on flat water but you will need to get it back in case of chop (a bit) or water movements (a lot), and especially late take offs, where the back foot can be nearly as far as the kick pad. So it is important to practice having the weight on the front foot to be able to move the back foot without destabilizing.
But yes, focusing on driving your board via the hips (for paddling power, hauling your body on the paddle) and the knees (for stability as you describe very well) is very useful for paddling on some distance, but you should also "decouple" your feet for tricky situations (water movements, positioning, take off)
Select to expand quotecolas said..
This why I advise for the fore/aft stability to have your weight mostly on the front foot, so that moving the back foot has less consequences. You want to be like a bike on a side kickstand: all the weight is on the wheels (front foot), and the kickstand (rear foot) can go far away to provide more stability.
Moving your back foot closer is nice on flat water but you will need to get it back in case of chop (a bit) or water movements (a lot), and especially late take offs, where the back foot can be nearly as far as the kick pad. So it is important to practice having the weight on the front foot to be able to move the back foot without destabilizing.
But yes, focusing on driving your board via the hips (for paddling power, hauling your body on the paddle) and the knees (for stability as you describe very well) is very useful for paddling on some distance, but you should also "decouple" your feet for tricky situations (water movements, positioning, take off)
Had a lot of fun with this in some chop. Although my board is longer than the kind of boards (8'10" sunova sneeze), it is relatively narrow at 30" and has thinned out rails. Putting my feet closer together is the only way to keep upright in the chop--it really allows balance to reset itself a lot easier. Also, been really helpful to experiment with fore-aft placement, and whether the rear foot is parallel or at slight angle to the stringer. Also, trying to out most of my weight on the front foot when turning and paddling into a wave.
I have also found that the bracing that naturally occurs when doing the "J-Stroke" is helping me. keeping my lower body centered over my board, and making sure that I am paddling in a straight line when getting into a wave by changing the angle of my paddle.
Select to expand quotecolas said..
After some experiments, I think I have found an easy way to have a good lateral balance on a small board. A small board being one with little lateral stability, be it because it is narrow, have thin rails, low volume, ...
Your front foot must be parallel to the stringer, and the less the board is stable laterally, the less distance it must have from the stringer.
The back foot will naturally position itself symmetrically wrt the stringer, so you actually only have to focus on the front foot.
To find this magic position, look at the following diagram:
- top row: if your feet are too close together, when you lean on one side, the leverage on the board will be not strong enough to make it roll at the same angle as your body: you feel the urge to widen your stance to keep balance
- middle row: if your feet are too wide apart (the problem of most people), when you lean on one side, the leverage on the board will make it roll faster than your body and you will be thrown overboard and your low foot will slip.
- bottom row: the perfect position: you will wobble as if your board and you was a solid culbuto toy. You want to be one with your board, as for banking in turns on a bike. Balance suddenly becomes super natural and smooth. It still needs a lot of concentration and it is still tiring, but it is definitively easier.
And once you experience this feeling, it is easy to re-find this perfect foot position by feeling how your board react to your wobbles.
It will not feel natural at all at first, but you must resist the urge to widen your stance, you will get quickly used to it.
It is especially useful if your rails are underwater. If your board has too much volume, it will not roll smoothly on its side (it resistance to rolling will vary with the angle), and the foot position is less critical. But for small and/or narrow boards, it is a very convenient rule of thumb to find the quickest way to feel at ease.
In practice this means that your feet are quite close to the stringer:
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Select to expand quoteJohndesu said..colas said..
After some experiments, I think I have found an easy way to have a good lateral balance on a small board. A small board being one with little lateral stability, be it because it is narrow, have thin rails, low volume, ...
Your front foot must be parallel to the stringer, and the less the board is stable laterally, the less distance it must have from the stringer.
The back foot will naturally position itself symmetrically wrt the stringer, so you actually only have to focus on the front foot.
To find this magic position, look at the following diagram:
- top row: if your feet are too close together, when you lean on one side, the leverage on the board will be not strong enough to make it roll at the same angle as your body: you feel the urge to widen your stance to keep balance
- middle row: if your feet are too wide apart (the problem of most people), when you lean on one side, the leverage on the board will make it roll faster than your body and you will be thrown overboard and your low foot will slip.
- bottom row: the perfect position: you will wobble as if your board and you was a solid culbuto toy. You want to be one with your board, as for banking in turns on a bike. Balance suddenly becomes super natural and smooth. It still needs a lot of concentration and it is still tiring, but it is definitively easier.And once you experience this feeling, it is easy to re-find this perfect foot position by feeling how your board react to your wobbles.
It will not feel natural at all at first, but you must resist the urge to widen your stance, you will get quickly used to it.
It is especially useful if your rails are underwater. If your board has too much volume, it will not roll smoothly on its side (it resistance to rolling will vary with the angle), and the foot position is less critical. But for small and/or narrow boards, it is a very convenient rule of thumb to find the quickest way to feel at ease.
In practice this means that your feet are quite close to the stringer:
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
You could go custom but I do not necessarily see any advantage to going that short.
@Supsean really identified a key point here. Being able to quickly reset from a position of instability is crucial.The other day I went out in really challenging conditions. Prior to this I spent some time in the gym where I practiced
my balance on a 65L exercise ball. These are very difficult to use. Now when I went out on the water it was the best session I had in terms of success. Sure I had fails and fell in the water numerous times
but the conditions were awful and more often than not I was able to maintain my balance.Okay so what was different this time. I found because I had been on the exercise ball I had a shift in focus. I had to let go of the rest of my
body and simply focused on my head balance and remaining calm. I was able to take that from the gym onto the water and it worked.The key I feel is two things:1. Head position - maintain a calm head space
2. Feet position - as narrow as possible.
I find with my board I have to be mindful of the back foot position. This is compounded by the fact that the bat wings at the back are quite thin with an overall small sweet spot to the board. Just moving your feet back even a centimetre gives the sense that the board is sinking at the back which starts to disrupt equilibrium.Keeping the feet narrow is the key.
Select to expand quoteJohndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Select to expand quotecolas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Following what you have been talking about I took my design study about the Phantom I've already done for one of our Seabreeze forumers and scale up to yours dims with the same ratio of volume. That ratio of 63liters/74kg to your 61kg has a result of 52 litres with 6'3" 22" 3.4" as you can see on the plan above here attached. I can still change dims keeping 52 litres as a constant buoyancy. Please note the step deck which allows thin rails for surfing control and a flat deck for the stability of paddling which is the nice originality of the Phantom.
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=JHONDESU
Select to expand quotecolas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Yes Colas i was thinking the same but I am a bit concerned about the length 6'6", but I think the volume (56.4L) is about right and also the highest volume of a surfboard that is available I think. My goal is to have / experience a super low volume surfing sup for balance and training and for use when the conditions are just right for it (an extra bow to my quiver) and any other ideas or advice from you would be much welcomed and appreciated thanks :-)
Select to expand quoteKami said..colas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Following what you have been talking about I took my design study about the Phantom I've already done for one of our Seabreeze forumers and scale up to yours dims with the same ratio of volume. That ratio of 63liters/74kg to your 61kg has a result of 52 litres with 6'3" 22" 3.4" as you can see on the plan above here attached. I can still change dims keeping 52 litres as a constant buoyancy. Please note the step deck which allows thin rails for surfing control and a flat deck for the stability of paddling which is the nice originality of the Phantom.
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=JHONDESU
Nice board Kami but a bit longer and a a bit wider and a bit more volume and a bit more nose & tail kick / rocker (eg 6.8 - 6.10 x 24 - 26" = 54 - 60L) and a rolled deck is fine and I love the thin rails as they are I think ?:-)
Good thread, I'll join in to support what Cola's has said.
Everything being relative..... "short" board means different things to different people
at 107 kg, a 9'1 - 125L board is basically at water level with me on it.
At 71 years old, everything becomes more of a challenge.
One of the boards I took to Portugal was 9'0 at 133 L.
I always stand in narrow semi surf stance, when in the surf.
Sometimes I close up the stance to near parallel to change it up a bit, but only momentarily.
I made this video on a tiny day in Portugal, because it was one of the few days I could actually set up the Soloshot on the beach.
I had sprained my ankle a few days before, so I was testing it out..... ha ha, I couldn't surf for 3 weeks after this session.
But, it does show pretty clearly, my paddle in stance and my paddle out stance.... both the same. Narrow, slightly surf stance.
Select to expand quoteJohndesu said..Kami said..colas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Following what you have been talking about I took my design study about the Phantom I've already done for one of our Seabreeze forumers and scale up to yours dims with the same ratio of volume. That ratio of 63liters/74kg to your 61kg has a result of 52 litres with 6'3" 22" 3.4" as you can see on the plan above here attached. I can still change dims keeping 52 litres as a constant buoyancy. Please note the step deck which allows thin rails for surfing control and a flat deck for the stability of paddling which is the nice originality of the Phantom.
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=JHONDESU
Nice board Kami but a bit longer and a a bit wider and a bit more volume and a bit more nose & tail kick / rocker (eg 6.8 - 6.10 x 24 - 26" = 54 - 60L) and a rolled deck is fine and I love the thin rails as they are I think ?:-)
Ok Johndesu, I will work on your prescription next. 
Select to expand quotesupthecreek said..
Good thread, I'll join in to support what Cola's has said.
Everything being relative..... "short" board means different things to different people
at 107 kg, a 9'1 - 125L board is basically at water level with me on it.
At 71 years old, everything becomes more of a challenge.
One of the boards I took to Portugal was 9'0 at 133 L.
I always stand in narrow semi surf stance, when in the surf.
Sometimes I close up the stance to near parallel to change it up a bit, but only momentarily.
I made this video on a tiny day in Portugal, because it was one of the few days I could actually set up the Soloshot on the beach.
I had sprained my ankle a few days before, so I was testing it out..... ha ha, I couldn't surf for 3 weeks after this session.
But, it does show pretty clearly, my paddle in stance and my paddle out stance.... both the same. Narrow, slightly surf stance.
This picture is one I made a while ago to show someone my stance on two relatively small boards for me.
Thanks. I watched that video before, but never zero'd in to how close your feet are together when you are paddling out. Have been doing that lately on my 8'10" steeze. I am an intermediate at 85kg (on a good day) . Also, easy to see you changing your back foot on the wave during your turns.
Select to expand quotesupthecreek said..
Good thread, I'll join in to support what Cola's has said.
Everything being relative..... "short" board means different things to different people
at 107 kg, a 9'1 - 125L board is basically at water level with me on it.
At 71 years old, everything becomes more of a challenge.
One of the boards I took to Portugal was 9'0 at 133 L.
I always stand in narrow semi surf stance, when in the surf.
Sometimes I close up the stance to near parallel to change it up a bit, but only momentarily.
I made this video on a tiny day in Portugal, because it was one of the few days I could actually set up the Soloshot on the beach.
I had sprained my ankle a few days before, so I was testing it out..... ha ha, I couldn't surf for 3 weeks after this session.
But, it does show pretty clearly, my paddle in stance and my paddle out stance.... both the same. Narrow, slightly surf stance.
This picture is one I made a while ago to show someone my stance on two relatively small boards for me.
HI mate,
It seems counter intuitive but once applied and confidence gained I really feel it is the only effective way of maintaining good stability.
Was asked a question off line why I have this focus at the moment. Put simply you spend more time paddling in anticipation for a wave than
anything else. It can become easily tiring and frustrating if you spend more time falling in the water than anything else.I am finding more and more just how small the sweet spot is on my Deep Minion. Foot placement is crucial particularly with the back foot as the thinness in the tail is such that it does not take much to sink the board from the rear.
Am hoping to get my mate out with drone so I can video whats taking place out on the water.
The other thing that is missed in the photos is the bending of the knees. I am finding more success adopting a ski stance of sorts with the knees coming in. This creates a triangle of stability whereby correction is facilitated by the movement of BOTH knees at the same time. Try it and you will see what I mean.
Select to expand quoteKami said..Johndesu said..Kami said..colas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
Just wondering what would the volume of the board in the photo be? and also what do you think would be the weight of the rider for the water to be up to his thighs? I am thinking of buying an eco Bean ll surfboard 6'6"x23 1/4" =56.4L (surfboard warehouse) to use as a surfing wave sup because I want the low volume, I am only 61 kgs and i can not find a low volume sup so that the water level will be around / over my ankles, I want to be under the water when standing / waiting for a wave / slow paddling.?:-)
Water around your ankles means in practice that the board volume in liters is about your weight in kg.
Getting lower volume means sinking till the volume of your body underwater compensate for the difference.
On the pic above, he says in the video that the board is 63 liters for his 74 kg.
At your weight, using a prone surfboards is a good idea, it is a cheap way to find the dimensions you can manage compared to directly go to a custom SUP.
Following what you have been talking about I took my design study about the Phantom I've already done for one of our Seabreeze forumers and scale up to yours dims with the same ratio of volume. That ratio of 63liters/74kg to your 61kg has a result of 52 litres with 6'3" 22" 3.4" as you can see on the plan above here attached. I can still change dims keeping 52 litres as a constant buoyancy. Please note the step deck which allows thin rails for surfing control and a flat deck for the stability of paddling which is the nice originality of the Phantom.
www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Account=6301&BoardName=JHONDESU
Nice board Kami but a bit longer and a a bit wider and a bit more volume and a bit more nose & tail kick / rocker (eg 6.8 - 6.10 x 24 - 26" = 54 - 60L) and a rolled deck is fine and I love the thin rails as they are I think ?:-)
Ok Johndesu, I will work on your prescription next.
Ok thanks, when ever you have time (no hurry:-)
Select to expand quotesupthecreek said..
Good thread, I'll join in to support what Cola's has said.
Everything being relative..... "short" board means different things to different people
at 107 kg, a 9'1 - 125L board is basically at water level with me on it.
At 71 years old, everything becomes more of a challenge.
One of the boards I took to Portugal was 9'0 at 133 L.
I always stand in narrow semi surf stance, when in the surf.
Sometimes I close up the stance to near parallel to change it up a bit, but only momentarily.
I made this video on a tiny day in Portugal, because it was one of the few days I could actually set up the Soloshot on the beach.
I had sprained my ankle a few days before, so I was testing it out..... ha ha, I couldn't surf for 3 weeks after this session.
But, it does show pretty clearly, my paddle in stance and my paddle out stance.... both the same. Narrow, slightly surf stance.
This picture is one I made a while ago to show someone my stance on two relatively small boards for me.
Legendary for 71!, If you were younger I would say that you could / should have gone over the broken wave as you were going forward, stand up (in a proper surf stance a second just before the wave is in front of you) and lift the nose, lean back and over the white water (resulting in a pack flip for you) and your board would have suffered no stress (I always surf sup like I have no leg rope on:-)
Select to expand quoteJohndesu said..
Yes Colas i was thinking the same but I am a bit concerned about the length 6'6", but I think the volume (56.4L) is about right and also the highest volume of a surfboard that is available I think. My goal is to have / experience a super low volume surfing sup for balance and training and for use when the conditions are just right for it (an extra bow to my quiver) and any other ideas or advice from you would be much welcomed and appreciated thanks :-)
I think you should try to get second hand boards to spend as little money as possible, and also get longer boards, so that you only have to manage the reduction in volume and width at first. Maybe a foamie?
I have been using my surfboard, a cruiser 9'1" x 23.5" x 72 liters as SUP practice for my 100kg for training, and it was hyper fun but quite insane. it was only on the flat, couldn't envision trying to get waves with it, I was sinking to my chest. It would have been impossible to also manage a short length. I must say I did not use it a lot, it was too punishing.
I tried once a small SUP (switched with a light guy who wanted to try my board), Imagine Impact 7'10" x 27 3/4 x 84l, and I could actually take 3 waves. I could stand on it only 20 seconds at a time, so I stood up just before the incoming wave.
Renting surfboards could be a good idea to try different sizes and volumes, with a paddle with thick protections to avoid dinging the rails.
Select to expand quotecolas said..Johndesu said..
Yes Colas i was thinking the same but I am a bit concerned about the length 6'6", but I think the volume (56.4L) is about right and also the highest volume of a surfboard that is available I think. My goal is to have / experience a super low volume surfing sup for balance and training and for use when the conditions are just right for it (an extra bow to my quiver) and any other ideas or advice from you would be much welcomed and appreciated thanks :-)
I think you should try to get second hand boards to spend as little money as possible, and also get longer boards, so that you only have to manage the reduction in volume and width at first. Maybe a foamie?
I have been using my surfboard, a cruiser 9'1" x 23.5" x 72 liters as SUP practice for my 100kg for training, and it was hyper fun but quite insane. it was only on the flat, couldn't envision trying to get waves with it, I was sinking to my chest. It would have been impossible to also manage a short length. I must say I did not use it a lot, it was too punishing.
I tried once a small SUP (switched with a light guy who wanted to try my board), Imagine Impact 7'10" x 27 3/4 x 84l, and I could actually take 3 waves. I could stand on it only 20 seconds at a time, so I stood up just before the incoming wave.
Renting surfboards could be a good idea to try different sizes and volumes, with a paddle with thick protections to avoid dinging the rails.
Hi Colas
I have found two almost as new second hand boards, - 1st is the Eco Bean 2 (66x23 1/4"x3 1/4"=56.4L) about $400, and a Walden Mini Mega Magic 6'10x23 1/2"x3 3/4"=67L about $550. So which board do you think I should lean towards more, which would suit my needs more do you think?:-)
I am thinking maybe the Walden but it costs more, also I want to see and compare the rocker and rail of both boards together (and they are owned by the same seller:-)
What a thread about "lateral balance on a small SUP" because this ability allows getting board looking more like surfboards rather than a floating objet
Thanks to the synergy of Seabreeze's elder athlete and younger one for their melt of passions and means with the technical help of Colas. 
So Following your SUP feedbacks and the need of Jhondesu to find the right board to fit his agility and mensuration, my input will be to design the accurate board needed with S3D program which I'm mastering more than my SUP practice now
As Johndesu said :
Nice board Kami but a bit longer and a bit wider and a bit more volume and a bit more nose & tail kick/rocker (eg 6.8 - 6.10 x 24 - 26" = 54 - 60L) and a rolled deck is fine and I love the thin rails as they are I think ?:-)
So here comes Jhondesu specifications like that now= www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Board=5711
I thinned the rail getting the apex lower, I didn't change or kick the rocker but the board may seem more scooped because of the change on upper lines of the deck.
The bottom shape is a flat entry coming into a vee where 2 concaves are flattening the planning areas in front of the fins . The tail is flat or a bit of vee to fit the round pin outline. (see B&W picture of the bottom shape below)
If you would prefer a full concave from nose to tail with concave vee as a modern shortboard are please tell me. In that case, I will have to add more kick/rocker.
I still can change any dims or shape up to you.
Select to expand quoteJohndesu said..
Hi Colas
I have found two almost as new second hand boards, - 1st is the Eco Bean 2 (66x23 1/4"x3 1/4"=56.4L) about $400, and a Walden Mini Mega Magic 6'10x23 1/2"x3 3/4"=67L about $550. So which board do you think I should lean towards more, which would suit my needs more do you think?:-)
I am thinking maybe the Walden but it costs more, also I want to see and compare the rocker and rail of both boards together (and they are owned by the same seller:-)
The Walden is interesting, as it should float you: so you will only have to tackle the reduced length & width, it may end up as actually SUPable in the waves for you quite quickly.
The Eco Bean 2 would be to test a really sinking board, even though it may not be practical in actual waves....
Select to expand quotecolas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
I have found two almost as new second hand boards, - 1st is the Eco Bean 2 (66x23 1/4"x3 1/4"=56.4L) about $400, and a Walden Mini Mega Magic 6'10x23 1/2"x3 3/4"=67L about $550. So which board do you think I should lean towards more, which would suit my needs more do you think?:-)
I am thinking maybe the Walden but it costs more, also I want to see and compare the rocker and rail of both boards together (and they are owned by the same seller:-)
The Walden is interesting, as it should float you: so you will only have to tackle the reduced length & width, it may end up as actually SUPable in the waves for you quite quickly.
The Eco Bean 2 would be to test a really sinking board, even though it may not be practical in actual waves....
Prone board shape has not the same centre of buoyancy which is generally positioning pulled back the tail. That makes the board sinking from the nose while paddling stand up. To be paddle less tippy on a longitudinal balance as possible Centre of buoyancy has to be softly passed forward the max width. The feet paddle stand up positioning has to be thought while designing the board as I done and you can see on the B&W picture attached below.
Centre of buoyancy settled far on the nose makes the paddling safe but the board is " pushing water" , sorry Colas to say that it is like your board that you are paddling forcefully to enter the wave.
Select to expand quotecolas said..Johndesu said..
Hi Colas
I have found two almost as new second hand boards, - 1st is the Eco Bean 2 (66x23 1/4"x3 1/4"=56.4L) about $400, and a Walden Mini Mega Magic 6'10x23 1/2"x3 3/4"=67L about $550. So which board do you think I should lean towards more, which would suit my needs more do you think?:-)
I am thinking maybe the Walden but it costs more, also I want to see and compare the rocker and rail of both boards together (and they are owned by the same seller:-)
The Walden is interesting, as it should float you: so you will only have to tackle the reduced length & width, it may end up as actually SUPable in the waves for you quite quickly.
The Eco Bean 2 would be to test a really sinking board, even though it may not be practical in actual waves....
Yes Colas i agree with you and i value your feedback, I want to ask you what do you think the 67L Walden might do in regards to sitting in the water? / at what level? / just under the surface or a bit on top?:-) I think we are very similar (age,ability thinking etc.) but you are a lot bigger than me:-)
Select to expand quoteKami said..
What a thread about "lateral balance on a small SUP" because this ability allows getting board looking more like surfboards rather than a floating objet
Thanks to the synergy of Seabreeze's elder athlete and younger one for their melt of passions and means with the technical help of Colas.
So Following your SUP feedbacks and the need of Jhondesu to find the right board to fit his agility and mensuration, my input will be to design the accurate board needed with S3D program which I'm mastering more than my SUP practice now
As Johndesu said :
Nice board Kami but a bit longer and a bit wider and a bit more volume and a bit more nose & tail kick/rocker (eg 6.8 - 6.10 x 24 - 26" = 54 - 60L) and a rolled deck is fine and I love the thin rails as they are I think ?:-)
So here comes Jhondesu specifications like that now= www.shape3d.com/Viewers/Viewer3D.aspx?Board=5711
I thinned the rail getting the apex lower, I didn't change or kick the rocker but the board may seem more scooped because of the change on upper lines of the deck.
The bottom shape is a flat entry coming into a vee where 2 concaves are flattening the planning areas in front of the fins . The tail is flat or a bit of vee to fit the round pin outline. (see B&W picture of the bottom shape below)
If you would prefer a full concave from nose to tail with concave vee as a modern shortboard are please tell me. In that case, I will have to add more kick/rocker.
I still can change any dims or shape up to you.
Thanks Kami looks good but I think a shortboard full single / double concave is the only way to go, and maybe a bit more area in the tail / semi squash / square, and I like the almond type rails (similar to my old 7.4 JP) but maybe with a tucked under edge, (I know that you like this type of board to ride also:-)
