Gybing, yes again. My checklist

Good list of important points. Regarding point 1, speed out is about 40% in a decent jibe and 50% in a very good jibe. Planing threshold is about 8-10 knots, maybe a bit lower on big gear. So you got to go into the turn with at least 20 knots to have a chance to plane out at 8 knots. In chop on freeride gear, it's pretty common to go less than 20 knots, so planing through a jibe gets harder, unless you pick up some extra speed going into the jibe.
If it's windy enough, or you can use swell to re-accelerate after the jibe, speed can briefly drop down to 6 knots without the board fully coming of the plane.
Flat water rules for jibing since it's easy to pick up speed, and to keep the speed in the jibe. Going into jibes at 30 knots at places like Albany is worth a long trip! But if you mostly sail on flat water, it's very easy to forget about point 2, since you can get away with not bending your knees if there's no chop. But that will bite you next time you jibe in chop, so bend those knees (more!) even on flat water.

2 and 3 are my main failings with fin jibes.

When I've been lucky to have enough wind to fin lately, I've really tried to exaggerate bending my knees and getting forward to what felt like a silly amount to me.

It wasn't. The board glides much further, about 3/4 thru and if my sail handling was better (point 3) I would come out planing.
Foiling is much more forgiving because you can see and feel what is going on, and even step and flip pretty ugly and still come out the other side with speed.

My jibing improved significant when using overhand grip instead of underhand grip.

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Icelake said..
My jibing improved significant when using overhand grip instead of underhand grip.

I always change to overhand grip just before I unhook.
Reach under with underhand grip after the flip. You can keep lower and reach further. Guy Cribb tip??
Not that I'm any good at speed in chop.

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aeroegnr said..
....You're giving me hope with fin jibes. I see the light at the end of the tunnel... just need the right day...

You got this! We're cheering for you.

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Icelake said..
My jibing improved significant when using overhand grip instead of underhand grip.

Most important part of the process....

How not to jibe - even skilled riders make some goofs

Step 1. Don't follow forum advice on how to gybe 'correctly'.
(However well-intentioned it may be!)

In my experience, I got very, very confused learning to gybe over the last year partly from all the advice in multiple threads already on this forum.

Everyone is different. Every gybe is different. And there are many, many different ways to skin a cat.

For example: One frequently given *important* piece of advice is to 'get your weight forward'. Only when I went for some actual gybe coaching on the water - and catapaulted over the front mid-gybe at one point - my instructor informed me I was actually stalling the board on chop mid-gybe because I had my weight TOO far forward. I'd completly over-cooked the 'weight forward' thing. Had he not told me though I would genuinely have thought the problem was STILL me not getting my weight forward enough!

I can't recommend gybe coaching enough.

My only advice to a newbie would be stick at it - and don't expect to suddenly become Bjorn Dunkerbeck in a month or two practice. I began learning the carve gybe approximately one year ago. Some 3000 kms windsurfing later and maybe 1000s of gybe attempts - and only in the last few months have my gybes become mostly dry. I've managed to land a massive total of three fully-planing gybes - in the last few months also. Perhaps I'm just naturally quite crap!

Some fin tips from me:

When sailing powered in open ocean sea / large chop - you actually want to slow down just a touch and try and time your gybe exit on a downward slope - come out of the gybe surfing a wave or chop trough across the wind on the new tack (or slightly downwind)

Obviously racers dont have this luxury which is part of what makes PWA slalom so impressive / dangerous.

In flat water - go hard and do what you like - you can have all the bad habits in the world and the flat water will disguise them! Here is one tip that took me 35 years to learn - as well as carving pressure with the back foot, using your front foot to lift the rail is a super magic trick that makes good things (a sudden release of drag and accelerating sensation from the engaged rail ) happen (particularly useful on boards 65cm plus wide) - at least it does on my Windtech Silver Bullet 70.

5 min of mostly learning jibing with the free-race gear (my favourite jibe is at 01:42 in the first clip), and then using these new skills in the slalom competition some 15 days later (and doing so many mistakes there because of no comp experience).

Slide your front hand further forward before the flip.

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Icelake said..

AoetearoaSailor said..
Step 1. Don't follow forum advice on how to gybe 'correctly'.
(However well-intentioned it may be!)

In my experience, I got very, very confused learning to gybe over the last year partly from all the advice in multiple threads already on this forum.

Everyone is different. Every gybe is different. And there are many, many different ways to skin a cat.

For example: One frequently given *important* piece of advice is to 'get your weight forward'. Only when I went for some actual gybe coaching on the water - and catapaulted over the front mid-gybe at one point - my instructor informed me I was actually stalling the board on chop mid-gybe because I had my weight TOO far forward. I'd completly over-cooked the 'weight forward' thing. Had he not told me though I would genuinely have thought the problem was STILL me not getting my weight forward enough!

I can't recommend gybe coaching enough.

My only advice to a newbie would be stick at it - and don't expect to suddenly become Bjorn Dunkerbeck in a month or two practice. I began learning the carve gybe approximately one year ago. Some 3000 kms windsurfing later and maybe 1000s of gybe attempts - and only in the last few months have my gybes become mostly dry. I've managed to land a massive total of three fully-planing gybes - in the last few months also. Perhaps I'm just naturally quite crap!

@AoetearoaSailor
What was more key advice from the coach that worked for you (beside the the weight too much forward)?

The coach I saw was in Vasiliki - he also runs a well-known YT channel. His general approach to working with me was to switch-stuff-up-alot - in that our session became less about actually focusisng on how to gybe perfectly (like we are all trying to do all the time) and more about playing around different aspects of it - which actually helped me learn a great deal in 2hrs.

Big long swooping turns, deliberately stopping the gybe stone dead mind-turn and waterstarting from that position, those sorts of random things. After this session I nailed my first ever fully-planing carve gybe, something I'd never even got vaguely close to before, so it must have been bloody good coaching.

One thing from all this playing about - was I learned how to get really comfortable sailing clew first, and actually holding clew first while fully powered to getting fully planing. This lead to me getting comfortable exiting a gybe fully planing clew first and then... the magical first planing exit and planing rig flip - like a boss!

I've realised now that the clew-first skill gives you more options to use during the gybe. It isn't the 'right' way to gybe everytime - I don't think there is ever a 'right' way - but clew-first exit gives you one more option you can switch to in a fraction of a second as conditions and the individual gybe require.

He also did a fantatic on-land session with me - practicing the rig flip over, and over, and over. Moving the old front hand to the mast-end of the boom in one smooth combined motion with both hands, then letting the rig rotate and drop back behind you with straight arms, then 'popping' the rig back to the neutral sailing position with the old front hand, rather than getting all fingers-and-thimbs and scrambling desperately to reach down for the rig like I was doing before. 10 minutes of practicing this movement on land and I've never forgotten it since.

I'll bite now, lol...

Other things I've figured out since - from my experience* - are that:
1) the key to the gybe for me seems to be more about the hips than anything else. Really nailing the non-planing light-wind gybe really helps with understanding this. The hips need to get low. The hips have to be just in line with the inside rail and your carving foot, but the body upright. A wide boom grip helps with this. The hips also initiate the foot change - in that at a certain point during the turn the rig twists round and hip position begins to feel awkward so you need to shift your feet. The already twisted hips make this process faster
2) Straighten that front arm - don't pull it in close to your chest
3) You need to predict and absorb big chop / waves with BOTH your knees and the hands - it actually feels a bit like 'pumping' a mountain bike over rough terrain. There's probably a 'mast foot pressure' thing going on here - whatever that actually means - but if you keep pushing down on the boom like mad while going over big chop the board will stall. It's a push and release with both the legs and arms. You need to look through the sail window to see what's coming at you also - and predict the movements needed before you make them.
4) Don't get too hung up on how to switch your feet - or focus on doing it 'correctly' - especially trying to do the 'ballerina' foot change. Just move your feet. You'll get faster at this over time and you can micro-correct your feet position in a fraction of a second once they are both switched. Sometimes I continue to carve with the new front foot pushing towards the new windward rail after the foot change, because the new rear foot hasn't got far enough over. No problem.
5) Don't worry about needing to make a quick glance at your feet to move them (and remind yourself where they are!). After about 1000 repetitions (in my case) you will finally remember that you have feet and where they are actually supposed to go, and you won't need to look at them before you move them.
6) Conditions have to be just right for a great gybe. Overpowered, you are toast (while learning). Underpowered, it will never happen, but you can pump the sail on the way in to improve your chances.
7) Practice, practice, practive the non-planing carve gybe in light winds. There is almost no fundamental difference in movement with the non-planing gybe, versus a fully planing gybe. Light wind non-planing gybe is a great opportunity to get all the movement parts sorted before you throw gusts, waves and 20kts of water coming at you into the mix.
8) As you get better and more practiced at the carve gybe your visual awareness during the gybe will begin to be become better at looking towards the exit, but don't worry if you find yourself unable to do this to start with. I spent a good few months initially staring at my clew during the gybe (like I had read you were supposed to do) and feeling dizzy. Only now am I beginning to get my eyes out down the boom to start looking at the exit, because everything else is becoming automatic. Before this, it would've confused me. Looking at the exit / down the boom is not critical.

*Your mileage will vary - I'm mid-40s, windsurfed from age 11-16 and picked up windsurfing again only last year. I have two left feet and was never good at ball sports. I sail mostly on a large gusty choppy swell-infested freshwater lake and usually sail overpowered. I also use slalom-inspired freerace gear that really doesn't like chop or lake swell, go figure.

TLDR: 1) Get practiced with holding clew first sailing powered up to fully planing speed ; 2) get a smooth balanced rig flip absolutely nailed - by practicing first on dry land

Nicely done.

I just watched Taty u turn vid. He doesn't hang down like me. Do like Taty, not me
Maybe it is about trying to hang down, but not really hanging down..

As mentioned above, every gybe is different. Keep its simple and have fun I guess.

Planing through a clew-first jibe is a lot harder than planing through a jibe where you flip earlier. The sail is a lot less efficient when you are clew first, and it's harder to get a flip where the sail rotates neutrally around it's axis, without disturbing the board trim. ABK teaches the clew-first exit while learning a planing jibe to re-gain control if you loose too much speed. If you still have plenty of speed, flip earlier. You always loose speed during the flip since you don't have power in the sail, so if you do it earlier at higher speed, changes that you remain planing are better.

Windfoiling is quite different here, since you have a lot less drag on the foil. So foiling out clue-first can be a bit easier, since you need less drive from the sail.