Is the LT the best thing that ever happened to windsurfing? Or has it ruined it?

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Paducah said..

Gestalt said..

Paducah said..

Gestalt said..

you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.

And totally unsuitable for the task at hand for my needs when I bought my boards. Not to mention in my part of the world, the WOD hasn't been seen in the wild for about 25+ yrs. Quite trying to pretend that the WOD/LT is the answer to all problems for everyone - it's not. It does certain things very well. Other things, not so much.

Back to my original point which you did not dispute: the industry has been making beginner friendly boards pretty consistently over time. We, as the windsurfing general public, chose not to buy them. That's on us.

There's not much fundamentally different with the LT vs a dozen other similar boards other than the critical mass of enough nostalgia to get people to buy them.

you choose not to buy them but many many did chose to buy them.

your just being argumentative. you say the LT/Wod doesnt suit your needs then go on to say its fundamentally the same as the boards you bought which you listed above and bought at least 6 of.

The LT didn't exist in 2001 when I bought my Start - can I be any more clear than that? FFS... WOD are non -existent where I live. Yeah, it's really my fault for not buying a board no one has seen here in close to 30 yrs. I bought all these before the LT came out. I didn't start windsurfing in 2018.

The Start was the perfect board for my needs. It's damn hard for a seven yr old to tack anything longer with a 2.1 sail. Yeah, he'd have had a ball with a tippy board that weighed almost as much as he did and virtually untackable. Great choice that... The LT/WOD fits your needs. It wouldn't have fit mine. But, it's me being argumentative for wanting something different than you.

I said the LT is fundamentally the same as the Kona, Exocent windsup, F2 Viper , Starboard Rio, Bic Nova and a crapton of other 300cm long, 80cm wide boards with a centerboard.

Again, you still haven't disputed the point of my original post other than to say I was wrong for not buying a board that didn't exist at the time.

i did answer your question but it seems you didn't like the answer because it's not aligned with your world view.

so again.

it is doubtful to not believable that a WOD doesn't exist where you live. they are everywhere in the world. the windsurfer or WOD was sold long before 2018.

having taught kids on both the start and the WOD i can say they are both great boards and that both boards are just as good as each other in the initial stages.

thing is, how do you know the wod doesn't tack if you've never used one for kids? i have helped and watched a few seven year olds who all didn't have issues tacking. granted it's easier with a 2.5m sail but i have to say it's the same with the start.

the problem with the start is kids outgrow them very quickly.one or 2 sessions really. the WOD on the other hand works long into early teens and can be raced, used for freestyle etc. kids where i sail are currently learning rail rides. can't do that with a start. kids can't lift a start either. so no advantage there.

again rather than buying 6 boards you could have just bought a windsurfer.

so yes the board existed.
yes it's great for 7 year olds
and yes it tacks with a 2m sail.

you and a few others here like to continuously bag the LT and the WOD but you've never used one. why do you think you should comment on stuff you have no direct experience with?

The LT on the other hand is not good for kids. i know as i've had direct experience. it needs a 4m+ sail to ge the most out of it because of the releationship to the centreboard. something the WOD doesn't experience.

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olskool said..
The Ol Wally is a tacking genius. Try stop one of those things from rounding up when its all wound up..

all depends on where you place the mast in the track.

I've been gradually moving my mast further forward on the LT. certainly further forward than the WOD

^ I can see the Wally (LT) but with the cap I can't see the mullet. C'mon show it all!

The brand that started a movement has returned!

The original windsurfer is back with a new take on the board that made us all fall in love.

The Windsurfer LT
Length: 12 feet
Weight: 15 kilograms
Volume: 229 liters
Width: 74 centimeters

The creation of the Windsurfer LT has been supervised by former Olympic windsurfer Bruce Wylie, and by the Windsurfer Class Association. The new windsurf board has been specifically designed to meet the needs of beginner and advanced sailors. It can be used for racing, freestyle, and even as a SUP board. "We built the first prototypes in our factory in and tested them throughout 2017. We tried several designs until we found the perfect blend of shape, rocker, underwater profile and weight," noted Wylie.
"We got the inspiration from the classic boards of the past, but made sure we introduced new ideas, lightweight EPS core, glass combi fabrics, and a bio-based foaming epoxy."

A case study from the creators:

The New Windsurfer LT - Taking windsurfing back to its roots with a do it all board for everyone. When Bruce Wylie - Head of COBRA Watersports BU - first came up with the idea for a unique new board design in 2016, he had conceived a board that could be raced, used for teaching or freestyle and even paddled as a stand-up paddleboard (SUP) on days with no wind. The sport of windsurfing was losing numbers and COBRA took on the challenge to reverse this trend with the belief that there should simply be a better board. At the same time, some of the biggest brands in windsurfing were looking for ways to bring more people into, and keep them involved with, the sport, particularly in lighter winds.

At one of the regular cross-industry discussions, COBRA was asked for their input, and were delighted to announce they had already started work on the project

One Simple Board but a Complex Problem to Solve

The aim was to produce a board so simple it could be picked up off the beach and enjoyed by a first-time sailor as well as offering superb tactical fleet racing to a more advanced sailor. Always intended to be a strict one design package of a single board and soft sail rig, performance would be down to the skill of the sailor and not decided by an expensive equipment arms race or the ability to hold down the biggest sail. In late 2016, Bruce and the COBRA team started work on their first prototypes. Looking for inspiration from classic race boards of the past, as well as the latest design ideas, they produced the first pair of boards. Extensive on the water testing followed with prototype boards #3 and #4 arriving in early 2017, but still, something was missing. Test board #5 arrived in mid-2017 and was an immediate favorite with everyone that sailed it. This perfect combination of board shape, rocker and underwater profile was something the designers couldn't improve on, coming back to this design even after they tried to develop the design further.

Prototype design #5 became the new White Board.


Quality, Consistency and the Capacity to Supply Globally

COBRA wanted to design and build a board that would provide more people with access to windsurfing and to do so successfully meant being able to provide large volumes of high quality boards that could be marketed by individual brands. COBRA's standardized production lines can respond rapidly to ramp up volumes, guaranteeing supply as a new board generates a spike in demand. Rigorous online quality control and inspection ensure COBRA boards are produced to the tightest tolerances, each the same as the one before.

All of the new boards will feature a Windsurfer? LT logo as the Windsurfer Class Association, who Internationally are celebrating their own 50th anniversary this year, have given the new board their seal of approval. The Windsurfer? class became involved with the project during the testing and evaluation phase and were so impressed that the Australian, Italian and Japanese fleets have voted to adopt the new boards as standard equipment.

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normster said..
Good stuff - love the board, how come cobra with all their experience can't get the centreboard gaskets sorted?

The gasket is a real problem and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more. silicone spray or trimming the gasket don't really work but I have yet to try using sail repair tap because my gasket has now spilt so it looks like I'm up for $90 to get a new one. I may just take them off and see how it goes.

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Paducah said..

Gestalt said..

Paducah said..

Gestalt said..

you should have just bought a windsurfer. a lot cheaper, and almost unbreakable.

And totally unsuitable for the task at hand for my needs when I bought my boards. Not to mention in my part of the world, the WOD hasn't been seen in the wild for about 25+ yrs. Quite trying to pretend that the WOD/LT is the answer to all problems for everyone - it's not. It does certain things very well. Other things, not so much.

Back to my original point which you did not dispute: the industry has been making beginner friendly boards pretty consistently over time. We, as the windsurfing general public, chose not to buy them. That's on us.

There's not much fundamentally different with the LT vs a dozen other similar boards other than the critical mass of enough nostalgia to get people to buy them.

you choose not to buy them but many many did chose to buy them.

your just being argumentative. you say the LT/Wod doesnt suit your needs then go on to say its fundamentally the same as the boards you bought which you listed above and bought at least 6 of.

The LT didn't exist in 2001 when I bought my Start - can I be any more clear than that? FFS... WOD are non -existent where I live. Yeah, it's really my fault for not buying a board no one has seen here in close to 30 yrs. I bought all these before the LT came out. I didn't start windsurfing in 2018.

The Start was the perfect board for my needs. It's damn hard for a seven yr old to tack anything longer with a 2.1 sail. Yeah, he'd have had a ball with a tippy board that weighed almost as much as he did and virtually untackable. Great choice that... The LT/WOD fits your needs. It wouldn't have fit mine. But, it's me being argumentative for wanting something different than you.

I said the LT is fundamentally the same as the Kona, Exocent windsup, F2 Viper , Starboard Rio, Bic Nova and a crapton of other 300cm long, 80cm wide boards with a centerboard.

Again, you still haven't disputed the point of my original post other than to say I was wrong for not buying a board that didn't exist at the time.

It's hard to see how anyone can seriously say the 366cm LT is fundamentally the same as the 300cm boards. That's even less accurate than saying a 300mm board is the same as a 233 cm board. The physical effects are very different; the shorter boards tend to be wide style boards that use the lift squaring effect of a wide planing surface but suffer the drag squaring effect of high form drag and the issue of low hull speed. The LT is the opposite. The LT is designed for a soft 5.7 sail, the others are not. The LT is designed far more for light air performance

The LT is very different to all but the Kona One and having spoken to the creators of each I know for a fact that it's significantly different in design and intent even to the Kona

I never ever said that there was a WOD or LT near you.

Terms like "reasonably well" and "glide" are so subjective as to be pretty much useless in many ways. To me, 300s don't glide at all, are not light wind oriented, and are utterly different from the LT you have not sailed - at least as different as they are from say a free ride board. A Techno freeride board, for example, feels much closer to a Techno 293 than the 293 does to an LT to me.

The physics also say the same thing, as did Jim Drake, often credited as the creator of the wide style and the WOD, in emails. And to repeat, in this case I have discussed the Kona and LT, for example, with their creators. Have you?

Despite your earlier implication, no one has said that the LT does everything well. It is what it is.

I did read what I wrote - I started by referring to the physical laws affecting board behaviour, which aren't subjective. I also referred to what the actual creators of some of these boards have told me about their aims for each design. Sure, some of what I wrote referred to subjective issues but that was just to show that even from subjective viewpoints the LT can be seen as very different from the boards you referred to.

By the way, the WoD is extremely "tackable" even with a 2m sail although I'm not saying you should have got on. But your post that claims the Superlight II, Serenity etc are designed for beginners is pretty obviously wrong.

Yeah I'm not so sure "most" kids will want a foil as soon as they see one either. This weekend just gone. I sailed in a Regatta that was 50/50 split between young and old and it was Raceboards and Foils on the start line. The kids are seeing the foil every weekend and whilst they are interested its not like they have lost interest in what they are curently on.

For example my son and his mate went sailing on Tuesday, nice breeze, I just bought a foil they could have used it but they both chose to go and train on techno's because they are heading to Vic in January for the Nationals.

The foil interests them but its not like it has made everything else redundant and over hearing their conversations its not like they are talking about wanting to foil all the time.

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cammd said..
Yeah I'm not so sure "most" kids will want a foil as soon as they see one either. This weekend just gone. I sailed in a Regatta that was 50/50 split between young and old and it was Raceboards and Foils on the start line. The kids are seeing the foil every weekend and whilst they are interested its not like they have lost interest in what they are curently on.

For example my son and his mate went sailing on Tuesday, nice breeze, I just bought a foil they could have used it but they both chose to go and train on techno's because they are heading to Vic in January for the Nationals.

The foil interests them but its not like it has made everything else redundant and over hearing their conversations its not like they are talking about wanting to foil all the time.

yup the assertions kids want to foil is just some adults opinion.

same with the commemts about kite foil, sup foil or any other foil.

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Chris249 said..

CJW said..
Not sure why you bring up kite foiling, it's a completely different sport and far far more niche than windfoiling. I have never ever seen a local kitefoil race in NSW. Sure the world HPT had a round in Sydney but save for that is there organised racing anywhere on the east coast? You can't really rock up with one at most local sailing clubs.

Speed wise, nothing short of an AC50/SailGP machine can compete with them...and you know what in some conditions I reckon they'd struggle against them, the Olympic kitefoil isn't quite in the same league as the setups on the hydrofoil Pro tour but would still smoke a windfoil. But again what's the point rally comparing them?

Speaking to the topic, anything that brings people back to the sport is a good thing. Here's how I see the LT; It's something you have in the shed and crack it out on a sat Arvo to have a fun race down at the local club. It's cheap, easy to sail and it's appeal is aimed smack at people who used to do that exact thing 30 years ago. Yep, cool, love it. Kids will sail one because mum or dad have one, however, as soon as most kids see someone on a foil, in my opinion they'll want one. Because it's now the Olympic class the junior pathways will hopefully develop. Now there's costs and all sorts of other things associated with that but we can only hope.

That said it's pretty tough to get kids interested in this sort of stuff these days. When I was younger our junior fleet was probably triple the size of the entire current fleet at my old club these days....that says a lot. And it's the same everywhere.

The ifoil is something I'd like to get into, but if something like that is so attractive to kids then why do so many of them sail Lasers, Optis and 420s and so few sail Nacras?

When you were younger the accent was on kids getting into boats like Lasers, 420s, Windsurfers and Hobie 16s. Now the industry tries to get them into foilers etc and as you say there are far fewer kids. You can argue that the evidence is that most kids are not attracted by high speed - if they were the Laser Radial and Opti would not be the worlds biggest classes, and sailing would arguably be MORE popular today than when slow classes were being promoted. Foiling fans have been claiming that foils would create a resurgence in the sport for about 20 years now and they are clearly wrong.

And if speed is so important why did you sail such a slow (albeit great) cat if I recall correctly?

'Relative', or 'perception' are the operative terms with all of this. When I was a kid doing some racing on flying 11's (old, clapped out flying 11's), a broad reach in a breeze might as well have been a run on the millennium falcon. The hissing wake, the spray, overtaking chop. Were the Hobies and Taipans I sailed later faster...? :).
I don't recall *ever* caring there were faster boats on the water (which I was certainly aware of). IMO the 'coolness' of being fast in the eyes of a casual observer matters little compared to accessibility in terms of skill and cost.

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RichardG said..
President of the WCAA, and overall World Champion, Nick Bez has just sent through a list of international LT events for 2020 - It's at this link:

app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYTEyYzUzY2YtN2NmNS00NmNkLWI1ZTAtYWM5MjE5YWI1YmQ5IiwidCI6IjA4YzBiNjhlLTBkNDItNDc0ZS1hZjczLTM2Mjk0OWE4ZDI1NCIsImMiOjh9

Tim Gourlay, the current Lightweight World Champion based in WA, will be going to the European championships in France in July 2020.

This might help others who also have interest.

Its cool we have top international talent in the LT Australian fleet and its very exciting indeed to see the growth of interest in this great sailing class.

Happy sailing.

Wow, not a single US event.

the qld crew hit mooloolaba today for a fun session. how cool is the LT in ocean swell. it was so much fun. so yes to the OP it's the best

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Windsurfer Class Association of Australia

NSW States run and done.

Sydney Harbour came alive with colour as 50 Windsurfers battled it out for the 2019 State Championships.

Hosted by Balmoral Sailing Club, 8 races were held over 2 days with conditions from light and tricky 5 knots through to a solid 18-20 in the final races. Race officer Even McHugh, along with Johnsy, and Laurie leading the team at BSC put on a quality show with top race management.

Great to see a mix of first-time racers and juniors mixing to up with some absolute top guns and legends of the class. After some incredibly tight racing in all divisions the 2019 NSW champions are:
Light: Malcolm Rofe / Medium: Michael Lancey / Heavy: Riccardo Renna (ITA) / Super Heavy: Stuart Gilbert / Women: Mel Webb / Cruiser: Yannick Graicon
Full results:
myclubspot.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/kSbhSNSMc6_doc_1576476920536

A super thank you to Four Frogs Cr?perie, WSS Boards and Surflogic Australia for providing support and giveaways for the event.

Some superb work behind the lens from Rob Owe-Young from BSC who captured the event fantastically. Check out the action here:
robertowe-young.smugmug.com/NSW-2019-Windsurfer-States-?fbclid=IwAR0d83DQnRxIfvVVWAAECbd7X_HoavW-6KgRoIFVRI7IUBOAVyUQPgGF0cs

As always, the work of the Windsurfer Class volunteers to pull the event off in style was incredible. Gratitude to Al Haynes, Peter Doolan, Mel Webb, Karen Murden, Pat Connolly, Steve Shimeld, Richard Lacey and so many others who did an awesome job.

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Gestalt said..

Paducah said..

Chris249 said..
Terms like "reasonably well" and "glide" are so subjective as to be pretty much useless in many ways. To me, ...

you were castigated for making assertions about equipment that you've never used and in some cases not seen.

none of us here are going to agree with each other on every point and comment but underlying our conversation is the knowledge that we have actually done what we are talking about.

How do you know I haven't seen an LT? I've personally helped fund getting them on the water here. Now, who's making assumptions?

I've said many times it's a fine board but not a panacea. I have seen them up close - circumstances didn't permit me to sail one the weekend we had them but several of my friends did. Their feedback was pretty much exactly what I anticipated. It's a nice board. However, it's wanting in a mixed race fleet which is what we have here.