Select to expand quoteSimon100 said..Roo said..or send Roo a demo sail and he can do the comparative sailing on the gorge against his benchmark NP Evo 9s
Would be happy to test it, I reckon I could find out how fast it would really go! Tested a few sails over the years, including double surface wings in the desert.
Can you explain that picture to us
The on water gear tester is obviously the guy in biardshorts. :). But love the Gaastra uniforms :)
(Note: this is a "no fisticuffs" 
interlude subtopic to pass the time while Stan's trusted mates are getting GPS and comparison data)
Can we predict the Wingsail's superior attributes when sailing?
For example, I'm thinking the Wingsail's profile will have moderate lift with relatively low drag compared to a conventional sail and so could well be superior when operating at small angles of attack (i.e. when the apparent wind is well forward). This will translate to it being great when wound up in moderate winds on flat water. i.e. It should excel with the apparent wind far forward. So great in flat water and light to moderate wind.
Anyone else care to have a go at predicting when it may be superior?
(No predicting when it will be inferior, please!)
May shed some light:
aeroevo.blogspot.com/2012/07/guest-post-thin-vs-thick-wings.html
Anyone else care to have a go at predicting when it may be superior?
(No predicting when it will be inferior, please!)
www.omerwingsail.com/theory-of-lift/
www.omerwingsail.com/driving-force/
www.omerwingsail.com/upwind-driving-force/
www.omerwingsail.com/Lift-Drag/
www.omerwingsail.com/air-velocity/
www.omerwingsail.com/air-velocity-pressure/
www.omerwingsail.com/circulation/
www.omerwingsail.com/upwing-fast-tacking/
And for the real freaks like me...https://www.avweb.com/news/airman/183261-1.html
Select to expand quoteMWsails said..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why is that , >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well now he's mentioned it, an inflatable sail traveling faster than you can swim in 40kts, is a concern.
Even a conventional rig attached to board, can spin away from you, it's only when the clew digs in that you have a chance of catching it.
Being an old fart, this is one of the reasons I don't go too far out in strong winds if it's not blowing onshore.
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
By the way: the claim of using a 5.8 sail in 18 to 42 knots is utterly ridiculous.
Sorry, but it's your comment that is ridiculous. This is a less than 3-fold range.
I have no problems planing on a 5.8 in 18 knots (and I am not a lightweight) . At Luderitz and other speed venues, 5.6 is a standard sail size in 40+ knots. At the PWA slalom events in Fuerteventura, that's a typical size for racing in 30-40 knot winds.
Or look at air plane wings. Landing speeds around 110 knots are not unusual; typical travel speeds are around 440 knots, that's a factor of 4. Airplane wings are perfectly well behaved at both ends of this 4-fold speed range.
The problem with current windsurf sails is that it needs extreme skills to use one sail in 18-42 knots. The hope for a wing sail would be to have a significantly wider wind range than current sails for less skilled windsurfers. For very skilled windsurfers, it might mean that a given sail size can be sailed more comfortably over a wide wind range. To what extend the current wing sails accomplish this is the question.
It is typical that a radically new invention will be met with overwhelming skepticism on the market place. We are too likely to think that what has not been done cannot be done. I recall a scientific paper in my field that made the statement "we cannot do X", and went on to prove it. The paper was peer-reviewed and published in a respected journal. Almost everyone believed them, but they were proven wrong a year or two later. What was "scientifically proven to be impossible" became what everyone did routinely.
Designing and manufacturing a "better sail" is challenging enough, but success at selling it is a bigger challenge. Perhaps the Omer wing sail is indeed a better sail, but it pretty much failed on the market place, joining hundreds of patented better mousetraps.
The first essential step to overcome the typical skepticism towards a new invention will be to get open-minded, widely trusted windsurfers to try the wing sail, and report about it. Here are a few possible ways to make this happen:
- Send a sail to NelsonFoils in Australia, so he can get it to "trust sources" like sailquik, decrepit, GPSTC team captains, etc. Have them report the experiences here.
- Bring the sail to the OBX wind week next April, and make it available for testing. Use it at the long distance race and place well (or have someone else do so). Try to get the event organizers (Mike Burns, Makani's JR, and Ocean Air) interested. Ideally, have someone less abrasive and with some marketing/sales/PR experience contact them.
- Get the German windsurf magazine "Surf" to test the sail. It regularly reports on new technology and has a few ten-thousand subscribers. While generally very open to new ideas, it's a bit more trustworthy than the UK and US magazines since it does not shy away from pointing out negative aspects.
Three different ideas for three different markets. The US market is smallest, but perhaps easiest to get a foot hold in without a local distributor.
Select to expand quoteNelsonFoils said..
Has the other topic been removed ???
The moderators wisely decided that we had all learnt "everything we needed to know about wingsails"
Sending me a sail will not help you in Australia a lot ... I am in Holland Europe .
What happend to this topic ?
Boardsurfr
"I have no problems planing on a 5.8 in 18 knots (and I am not a lightweight) . At Luderitz and other speed venues, 5.6 is a standard sail size in 40+ knots. At the PWA slalom events in Fuerteventura, that's a typical size for racing in 30-40 knot winds. "
But arent these different 5.8s and tuned totally differently?
For example a 5.8m wave sail with low downhaul (18 knots) compared to a 5.8m 4 cam race sail with max downhaul (40 knots).
Select to expand quoteNelsonFoils said..
Sending me a sail will not help you in Australia a lot ... I am in Holland Europe .
What happend to this topic ?
Topics can be reported by readers to,the moderator for any number of reasons. If the moderator agrees, then the topic is removed
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..duzzi said..
By the way: the claim of using a 5.8 sail in 18 to 42 knots is utterly ridiculous.
Sorry, but it's your comment that is ridiculous. This is a less than 3-fold range.
I have no problems planing on a 5.8 in 18 knots (and I am not a lightweight) . At Luderitz and other speed venues, 5.6 is a standard sail size in 40+ knots. At the PWA slalom events in Fuerteventura, that's a typical size for racing in 30-40 knot winds.
Or look at air plane wings. Landing speeds around 110 knots are not unusual; typical travel speeds are around 440 knots, that's a factor of 4. Airplane wings are perfectly well behaved at both ends of this 4-fold speed range.
The problem with current windsurf sails is that it needs extreme skills to use one sail in 18-42 knots. The hope for a wing sail would be to have a significantly wider wind range than current sails for less skilled windsurfers. For very skilled windsurfers, it might mean that a given sail size can be sailed more comfortably over a wide wind range. To what extend the current wing sails accomplish this is the question.
It is typical that a radically new invention will be met with overwhelming skepticism on the market place. We are too likely to think that what has not been done cannot be done. I recall a scientific paper in my field that made the statement "we cannot do X", and went on to prove it. The paper was peer-reviewed and published in a respected journal. Almost everyone believed them, but they were proven wrong a year or two later. What was "scientifically proven to be impossible" became what everyone did routinely.
Designing and manufacturing a "better sail" is challenging enough, but success at selling it is a bigger challenge. Perhaps the Omer wing sail is indeed a better sail, but it pretty much failed on the market place, joining hundreds of patented better mousetraps.
The first essential step to overcome the typical skepticism towards a new invention will be to get open-minded, widely trusted windsurfers to try the wing sail, and report about it. Here are a few possible ways to make this happen:
- Send a sail to NelsonFoils in Australia, so he can get it to "trust sources" like sailquik, decrepit, GPSTC team captains, etc. Have them report the experiences here.
- Bring the sail to the OBX wind week next April, and make it available for testing. Use it at the long distance race and place well (or have someone else do so). Try to get the event organizers (Mike Burns, Makani's JR, and Ocean Air) interested. Ideally, have someone less abrasive and with some marketing/sales/PR experience contact them.
- Get the German windsurf magazine "Surf" to test the sail. It regularly reports on new technology and has a few ten-thousand subscribers. While generally very open to new ideas, it's a bit more trustworthy than the UK and US magazines since it does not shy away from pointing out negative aspects.
Three different ideas for three different markets. The US market is smallest, but perhaps easiest to get a foot hold in without a local distributor.
Thanks Peter! So far this forum was very interesting and educational, at least for me. Besides high level of skepticism, forum did serve it's purpose, spreading the word, get attention and encourage to make own research . I run business biggest part of my life and from my experience I know that things do not happen overnight. People will absorb knowledge and accept it, just give them some time. I have experience in aviation including flying small planes. Still have video on YouTube flying Cessna 152. I know how things in aerodynamics work and I know how to built stuff. My wingsail venture started in 2012. I experimented and built many different wingsail concepts using same mast size. I built sails with 140 cm to 220 cm boom, with different profiles and different centers of pressure . I've gain extensive knowledge on how things work on sailboard . Now I can tell why designs of my predecessors doesn't work at all. I'm not exhibiting raw product. I give to the world well developed , mature version of reversible wing. It is very surprising for me that people assume that wing will be better for light wind. Completely opposite. Charts on my web from science. It clearly shows that wing have its advantage on high speed. Yes, my larger sail is coming up, it's in production stage . It was in plans for quite a wile. But it's still not for low wind conditions. When I was doing R&D I knew what to expect, I just didn't know how many challenges I'm going to face . You see, while coefficient of lift CL on curved plate is 1.2 , Wing gives 1.4 . Such a small value to utilize. Small value of lift is hardly enough to declare better product. So I took in account everything, every small issue. As a result, now we have this incredible smooth and fast sail. People say that race sails are stable now, it just because they never tried my sail. It will redefine core of understanding what stability is. We put final commercial product together 5 weeks ago and it took us 7 days to create and publish website. There was no time for independent opinion, and frankly why? I have better product in any aspect, one in the world. Very slow and still expensive manufacturing process. I have customers who want it , people who already bought it from us. Should I let product speak for itself or hire athlete?
Now it brings me to the next topic - racing. Race sails , wing or primitive are created differently. Race wing is outfitted differently ( we will produce it as a separate line later). Majority of windsurfers don't want racing product. Racing sails already made it's debut and end up as promotional product. Give it to racer and get your name exposed. Racing is fun, so we will have race sails, but not now, later.
And now speed sailing. Yes, there is a community that has my attention. Who doesn't like speed?! Our sail is already fast enough, but My current 5.8 is candidate for small speed upgrade (about 200 grams of weight in addition). So why I don't do it? I know rules of the game. Special board, fin, counterweight ,speed west, helmet etc., that flat water spot (we have one in NJ on the middle of bay, where sandbar is). To many troubles and very different game. So I made business decision not to promote my sail as a speed sail, but as all around, faster, inflatable sail with enormous (this is true) wind range. No, I didn't leave speed-sailors behind. I can easily produce speed sail anytime. But why should I participate in expensive speed sailing venture when there are so many speed hungry guys like yourself and beauty of it, you will pay for it! How? We are going to say that if you are not going to improve, just return sail to us and we will refund all your money back. How is that? I always invite everybody for demo on NJ bay. I expect new season to start in March - April.
As for the races suggestion. We made our plans for next year in the middle of the summer. I will be in OBX first week of May, Avon village. We might go to Florida Keys to test our larger version in late January. Hopefully we will meet Alex Morales for hydrofoil test and also. Also, we might be visitors for upcoming races in Chesapeake bay in April (depends) . I would love to go to LaDefi, but I don't know if our financial situation will allow.
Oh, by the way, if there ever will be free demo model in Europe, Garret might be the best candidate to have it.
GPS freaks are the ones who spend the most money on new gear, intermediates don't. BTW, Is it possible to make the window closer the mast (it looks a bit claustrophobic now)?
Select to expand quoteMrCranky said..
GPS freaks are the ones who spend the most money on new gear, intermediates don't. BTW, Is it possible to make the window closer the mast (it looks a bit claustrophobic now)?
No its not possible
Select to expand quoteNelsonFoils said..
So what was the problem ?
I don't know, I didn't report it. I suggest you check out the report flag on the top right of a post and take your pick.
I am amazed how rude people can be especially when someone has put their heart and soul into such a beautiful product. Noone is forcing you to buy it so there is no need to take cheap shots at someone that clearly has a passion for our sport. Geez guys have some dignity and respect. Besides...... those that are talking trash would never have the balls to stand in front of MW and say such horrid things.
Congrats on your product and I hope it becomes a force in windsurfing.
Daz, respect cuts both ways. Many people have put their heart and soul into "conventional" sails, and before this thread started MW's website and posts on other forums called them, their sails and their ideas "ridicules" (sic), said that their minds were "fogged", called the sails "primitive", said that some of the world's top boat and wing designers created "primitive" multi-million dollar wingsails, that people came to "foolish conclusions".
MW is the guy who started the trash talking, abuse, insults and cheap shots at passionate people, and he has kept it up. He insults the minds of people, the sails they create, and their motivation for defending others. If he starts the game that way then few people can be blamed for trying to defend other sailors and sailmakers.
It would be great if people would not insult others - but MW started slinging **** on his website and surely we can defend those he abuses. You may like to stand back and watch someone abused, but some of us stand up to that sort of thing. If MW doesn't want it then he should not have started it.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
Daz, respect cuts both ways. Many people have put their heart and soul into "conventional" sails, and before this thread started MW's website and posts on other forums called them, their sails and their ideas "ridicules" (sic), said that their minds were "fogged", called the sails "primitive", said that some of the world's top boat and wing designers created "primitive" multi-million dollar wingsails, that people came to "foolish conclusions".
MW is the guy who started the trash talking, abuse, insults and cheap shots at passionate people, and he has kept it up. He insults the minds of people, the sails they create, and their motivation for defending others. If he starts the game that way then few people can be blamed for trying to defend other sailors and sailmakers.
It would be great if people would not insult others - but MW started slinging **** on his website and surely we can defend those he abuses. You may like to stand back and watch someone abused, but some of us stand up to that sort of thing. If MW doesn't want it then he should not have started it.
Well if that is the case I am picking up the wrong end of the stick...... sad really that people can't just get along.
Select to expand quoteNelsonFoils said..
So many Einstein quotes out there in internet land, most of which he never said.
That being said, is this one real or not? I have no idea, it's kind of like the Bible, for every quote that teaches one point of view, another can be found that supports the opposing point of view.
So what's your point, Nelson? Are you inferring that the wingsail makers are "wise" and those who are trying to discuss the claims are "weak", which seems to be the point of your second quote?
It's not a case of following crowds against being a lone wolf - it's a case where some of us are trying to discuss the physical aspects of the latest iteration of an 80 year old concept. This should be about airflow, not about quotes that seem to be intended to insult some people and boost the ego of others. As MB says, we can all find something to quote to support our position - but that is not going to change the reality of aerodynamics.
I bet everyone's first reaction to wingsails is "cool". I know mine was when I first saw one in pics and in reality, many years ago. Looking at the typical reaction on the net, most people today have the same reaction. So it's not something where people are afraid of being different.
However, time and time and time again, wingsails of various types have failed to show the promised performance. The Ilan wingsail you linked to earlier is a classic case, as noted earlier. The creator said he'd be able to provide objective data years ago - he still hasn't. One company (Seascape) went to the hassle of fitting not one, but two of their boats with Ilan Wingsails - but Seascape say that overall, it was NOT better and NOT worth the issues. Surely the truly open mind would find such failures to live up to the hype are worth investigating and discussing?
I and many like me are NOT anti-wingsail. We are just interested in finding out the reality. Simplistic illustrations that have not been proven to relate to real-world conditions don't convince us, nor should they. What some of us are trying to do is to actually discuss the reality, not the image or the hype, and we are not interested in insults or slogans.
If you don't like it just report it like the other topic
We are just interested in finding out the reality ; so go to the website and order one , Stanislav did his part of the job
