First results with the Canmore GPS GP-102+

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Carl Macdonald said..
G'day,

Have purchased a Cranmore GP102+ and wondering how to change to GPX file to download through KA72 or realspeed? Have tried as .fit file but doesn't provide max speed and alpha, nautical and hour incorrect.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Carl.

I just tested KA72.com with a fit file from the Canmore, and get results that are very close to what I get with GPS Action Replay and a GPX file after conversion with GPSBabel. One possible reason from not getting a max speed is that you may have not changed the logging interval from the 5 second default to 1 second. There are detailed instructions for getting started with the Canmore GP102+ at boardsurfr.blogspot.com/2014/07/getting-started-with-canmore-gp-102-gps.html

There is exactly one way to make it completely waterproof... and it is easy... just have a fully-welded case.

Then use:
- Wireless charging.
- Bluetooth with the File-transfer profile
- Get a $5 bluetooth receiver for your PC, if it isn't already built in.

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geoITA said..
No need at all for that.
My old Garmin Foretrex 201 is very close to what is needed: data transfer and recharging are made via an external cradle and external contacts.
I think the only shortcoming of the Foretrex 201 from that point of view is in the connection between screen and body; anyhow it seems way ahead of the completely water shy Canmore.
I still think at the Foretrex 201 as the better thought out, engineered, wearable, protected, user friendly among the few loggers I happened to use.
1) Take a Foretrex 201, keeping the Li-ion battery (for some reason, Garmin seems to go for AAA's now).
3) Make a properly sealed screen connection (this should make the unit "truly" IPX7 at least).
4) Fit the SIRF Star IV inside.
5) If possible: provide it with speedsurfing specific firmware, including 1Hz logging and the SpeedGenie.
5) Provide it with a well made arm band and soft protection case for convenience.
And it's done.
The GT-31 has a stupid big not-watertight case (but I have to reckon that brings the ability to carry a memory card inside). The GP-102+ has a stupid tiny screen (and in it's case there is no excuse for being that much water shy) and very unfriendly interface.
Just an opinion of course.

That sounds pretty attractive. it would be great if you could contact a manufacturer and organise the modifications for us, so that people like me who can't do the modifications themselves can just buy one off the shelf at a reasonable price.

The modifications you describe are like our earlier discussion on the Sirf IV chip; To quote myself from earlier in the forum " ...but there are a few hurdles to jump first. For example, can you find a commercially available unit that is using the Sirf V Chip, second does the unit have the basic pre requisites with regard IPX rating etc, third, is it reasonably priced and finally is the manufacturer willing to make modifications for what is a relatively small market? At the moment Canmore was the only company that I could find that jumped all those hurdles .."
So I wish you the best of luck and please post back should you have some success, because as you point out, the Canmore unit isn't perfect, it's just the best one that has jumped some of the hurdles thus far.

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geoITA said..
No need at all for that.
My old Garmin Foretrex 201 is very close to what is needed: data transfer and recharging are made via an external cradle and external contacts.
I think the only shortcoming of the Foretrex 201 from that point of view is in the connection between screen and body; anyhow it seems way ahead of the completely water shy Canmore.
I still think at the Foretrex 201 as the better thought out, engineered, wearable, protected, user friendly among the few loggers I happened to use.
1) Take a Foretrex 201, keeping the Li-ion battery (for some reason, Garmin seems to go for AAA's now).
3) Make a properly sealed screen connection (this should make the unit "truly" IPX7 at least).
4) Fit the SIRF Star IV inside.
5) If possible: provide it with speedsurfing specific firmware, including 1Hz logging and the SpeedGenie.
5) Provide it with a well made arm band and soft protection case for convenience.
And it's done.
The GT-31 has a stupid big not-watertight case (but I have to reckon that brings the ability to carry a memory card inside). The GP-102+ has a stupid tiny screen (and in it's case there is no excuse for being that much water shy) and very unfriendly interface.
Just an opinion of course.

You are one of the few that had a good experience with the Foretrex 201. The waterproofing was no good. The connection cradle was a pain in the A**. The serial interface needed flakey adapters and dodgey software. The screen was too small. the memory wa too small. The wrist bands popped off and ejected your GPS into the deep blue, never to be seen again. And the data from them was crap (which we didn't really know at the time, but now we know better). The list goes on.....

We made numerous attemps to get Garmin to modify its firmware and hardware. We got nowhere. They basically told us to Pi** off! I have absolutely no time for that company.

On the other hand, Locosys made endless changes to their firmware at no cost and with Tom Chalko's help, produced the absolute standard setter with state of the art features and accuracy for us. It's a pity it taking so long to come up with a successor, but they tell us they are working on it.

Again, I repeat, total waterproofing is waaaay down the list for me. There are much more important specifications to get right that are a lot cheaper and more practical to achieve. Total waterproofing is easily available to anyone with any device with inexpensive and practical waterproof arm bags like the Paqua. After all, you have to carry your GPS somehow......

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sailquik said..

geoITA said..
No need at all for that.
My old Garmin Foretrex 201 is very close to what is needed: data transfer and recharging are made via an external cradle and external contacts.
I think the only shortcoming of the Foretrex 201 from that point of view is in the connection between screen and body; anyhow it seems way ahead of the completely water shy Canmore.
I still think at the Foretrex 201 as the better thought out, engineered, wearable, protected, user friendly among the few loggers I happened to use.
1) Take a Foretrex 201, keeping the Li-ion battery (for some reason, Garmin seems to go for AAA's now).
3) Make a properly sealed screen connection (this should make the unit "truly" IPX7 at least).
4) Fit the SIRF Star IV inside.
5) If possible: provide it with speedsurfing specific firmware, including 1Hz logging and the SpeedGenie.
5) Provide it with a well made arm band and soft protection case for convenience.
And it's done.
The GT-31 has a stupid big not-watertight case (but I have to reckon that brings the ability to carry a memory card inside). The GP-102+ has a stupid tiny screen (and in it's case there is no excuse for being that much water shy) and very unfriendly interface.
Just an opinion of course.

You are one of the few that had a good experience with the Foretrex 201. The waterproofing was no good. The connection cradle was a pain in the A**. The serial interface needed flakey adapters and dodgey software. The screen was too small. the memory wa too small. The wrist bands popped off and ejected your GPS into the deep blue, never to be seen again. And the data from them was crap (which we didn't really know at the time, but now we know better). The list goes on.....

We made numerous attemps to get Garmin to modify its firmware and hardware. We got nowhere. They basically told us to Pi** off! I have absolutely no time for that company.

On the other hand, Locosys made endless changes to their firmware at no cost and with Tom Chalko's help, produced the absolute standard setter with state of the art features and accuracy for us. It's a pity it taking so long to come up with a successor, but they tell us they are working on it.

Again, I repeat, total waterproofing is waaaay down the list for me. There are much more important specifications to get right that are a lot cheaper and more practical to achieve. Total waterproofing is easily available to anyone with any device with inexpensive and practical waterproof arm bags like the Paqua. After all, you have to carry your GPS somehow......

In my personal experience waterproofing of the Foretrex 201 was not that good, but anyhow way better than that of the GT-31 and expecially than that of the GP-102+. I even happened to use a Foretrex 201 for some time with just the wristband. And I never happened to see it pop off, one just needs to take good care the pins are correctly inseerted (anyhow, I would love to see it with an easier to use, sturdier connection). The cradle system was OK for me, considering that it makes for easier better waterproofing; and never had a problem with either my adaptor or software (maybe I was lucky?). The screen was fairly OK for me, expecially considering it made for a wrist wearable unit. As for the memory, I agree with you: it barely covers a longish session if it was to be used at 1Hz. But the Canmore demonstrates you can have much better memory even in a tiny unit. And as for the data, with an up-to-date GPS module I suppose it would be OK (the Canmore demonstrates that a good GPS module can fit into a tiny unit).
Obviously I don't expect Garmin to follow the advice of a bunch of weird guys; I just hope that some other, smaller company, possibly Locosys, would listen to us.

Waterproofing is not at all that down the list for me, as it: 1) means I will not have to scrap yet another GPS logger if a tiny hole developes in my arm bag; 2) will even let me bring the unit inside a comfortable, soft, non-waterproof neoprene armband, instead than in a dangling plastic bag. No need for anything special, just a "true" IPX7 probably would be OK (as the neoprene armband/bag would add the needed impact resistance).

I sent Paqua an enquiry, but they are not answering. I would like to get a key bag of theirs (I think it's OK for the GP-102+) here in Italy.

I think it's nearly time for a kickstarter program to get a new speedsailing gps under way. Shouldn't be too hard to prototype and set up. I figure on using a U-Blox 10 hz gps chipset, 2 gb of onboard memory, wireless charging and bluetooth download in a sealed unit. I've got access to 3d printers for the case and a bunch of undergrad computer and software geeks who'll work for M&Ms. My son's engineering school provides grants of a few thousand dollars for prototype projects like this. Should keep him busy for a year or so.

It exists almost, it's call "trace" from Alpine Replay. Beta testing on going...
But indeed it is a great idea with a target price of 50euros....I would add double GPS synchronised receivers...then we don't need to buy 2 and the log embed the 2 tracks together.... Or?

Yes. A confidence check. There have been quite a few instances in the past where one GPS has read major errors which may not have been easily evident without comparison with the second unit. This is why we require at least two GPS for records, and they must both read within the acceptable SDOP margin of error, and that will not change with 5hz or 10hz units.

A modern accurate GPS for speed sailing should ideally have two antenna and two GPS engines built in to it. This is one of the most important things that will increase accuracy of our results. It is highly desirable to increase our accuracy and confidence in posts, even for recreational GPS users. At the moment, our best device (GT-31) can occasionally be off by up to almost half a knot (the Garmin 201 was more like over 2 knots). Have a look at some rankings and see how many sailors this error range can cover sometimes! At worst, with two records you can half the error for practical purposes, and when one GPS goes off the rails, at least we can usually tell and eliminate it.

I doubt if any commercial manufacturer will ever make a twin engine GPS, but we will always have the option of wearing two or more.

You are right, trace does not have display, it is logger. I think it will have at least 5hz logging....based on information given to beta tester....but it is far from being cheap! If anybody know, we could may be create a open satellite positioning receiver for windsurf based on Arduino architecture? They exist already for drone control and some others.
Soon, in the next coming years, when Galileo be up and running the satellite positioning will be hell of precise (less than a meter) in Europe at least,which will make a revolution for these tools.

This is really interesting. Not having the faintest clue about GPS units or the coding that goes into them, before we/Daffy/anyone spends a whole lot of time setting A 102+ up for GPS speed sailing are we sure it's the best available unit out there at the moment? I wouldn't want to find out in a few months that there's something far more suitable and we start the whole process again..

Apologies for playing devil's advocate...

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Bonominator said..
This is really interesting. Not having the faintest clue about GPS units or the coding that goes into them, before we/Daffy/anyone spends a whole lot of time setting A 102+ up for GPS speed sailing are we sure it's the best available unit out there at the moment? I wouldn't want to find out in a few months that there's something far more suitable and we start the whole process again..

Apologies for playing devil's advocate...

I think the Canmore is an interesting but very basic option that has potential to be a bit better than basic, but not a real replacement for the GT-31.

I have not had any replies from Canmore now for a couple of weeks so I guess that's a dead end as well.

On the other hand, I think Locosys are still working on a GT-31 replacement, so that is encouraging.

There is also the Flysight project that has huge potential but seems to be bogged down a bit, or on the back burner at the moment.

There are a number of fairly simple ways to make a 10hz logger (only) yourself using a UBlox module if you have basic electronics skills and this has been done and tested. One of these made by Manfred Fuchs proved extremely accurate and was tested against the Luderitz video timing with excellent results.

There are a number of GPS dongles out there (eg, Wintec GRays and GRaysII) that can output UBlox UBX binary data at 4,5 or 10hz via Bluetooth that can be recorded on another device. Both Roo and Slowboat have done this successfully to a Palm device. I am sure it could be done with a cheap Android smartphone as well and I am sure someone could write a software app to produce a useful 'Genie" type display as well. The question is how much do you want to risk drowning even a 'cheap' smartphone?

Even the best device I, or others, can devise, purpose built with limitless funding from scratch (what a dream! ) may still not suit everyone's idea of the perfect device.... The best we can probably hope for is that it does 95% plus of what we all want and we can live with the rest. Unfortunately, the market is most probably not big enough for us to ever have multiple competing options.

I am still quite optimistic we will have a few options that are very good in the not too distant future.

That's what I was getting at. Seems Daffy and others have done the homework. Fangy I know what you're saying too but I wasn't thinking so much about the next best thing, more about searching for the best option before starting to set up another device to the same level of sophistication built into the GT-31 firmware and software.

Still interesting nonetheless.

It's good to hear that you are still playing with this stuff at the leading edge Roo! We look forward to hearing how you go with it.

No worries, I hope it all goes well for you!

not sure what the os is, but if it's linux you also have to empty trash, it's a bit of a trap for beginners, the delete button simply moves stuff to the trash folder. You then have to "empty trash" to clear memory. Not sure about any other OS but emptying trash will empty the trash folders of any mounted memory.