@Windsmurf - sent you a link re that asymmetric Predator board , someones review ... oh dear ... speak to Seabreeze seriously ..... think you have TOTALLY got your wires crossed ... I sent the same link to Gestalt - he replied .... no issues ... no problems ...
@Gestalt - can you pm windsmurf and help me out ?
Not talking myself up imo ... but if someone particular on here wants to get patronising / bullying .......... with alot of posters ,
to quote (after a string of previous patronising quasi bullying BS) ...... MarkA .........." No probs man. Show some boards you bought, use some caps and you're an expert. All good. More caps and you will get believers. You go gal. '
then I'll respond (to my detriment ) , .... anything before that - talking myself up ? .... Im talking about technical stuff I experience on the water ... that is about it ! ... If I mention a move - its trying to get a sensation / technical thing across (like Ola does if talking different lines / power vert or whatever)
... Ive posted 1 photo before in years of being on here ..... (someone queried something ) ... and Ive posted 360 times ,.... MarkA posts 21753 posts , and Im talking myself up ? ,.......... in light of the pics I did post - I could have been posting that stuff years ago - " and talking myself up " - really ? - MarkaA comment .... use some caps and your an expert ....... obviously has no idea what my standard is ? - so Ive obviously been talking it up alot ... ?
anyway - now he knows - as he does re boukes pics etc - that there's others out there might be as good as him ....
So come on markA - post some pics - show me you have the skills to back up all this internet fluff ...
Wow. OK...
(1) seabreezer, you are a far better wavesailor than me, I can see that. True, I do mean it.
(2) In this thread, to my knowledge there are only 4 guys who have made boards for a job (regular income). One uses tons of toe and assy, one uses moderate toe, one says he doesn't like it on quads.
I'm kinda in between numbers 2 and 3 and called out number 1 on his theories that no other company has used. You disagree, so what. Love that you have the stoke. However, I will listen to the opinion of others and customer feedback. I also think its very telling that the big companies don't use much toe for all round boards for everyone at different spots - and that was the original question! You posting pics of your 3 customs that you love at your spots does not prove anything.
(3) A shaper / designer being an awesome sailor does not mean great boards, nor the converse - they are not dependent upon one another. My kiteboards are great (I never kited) my speed boards are fast (ditto) and whilst I am more known for making waveboards and FSW work for bigger folks (as I'm 100kg), my 67L waveboard is a ripper. My learners wingfoil is great. My carbon products for rallycars were great in 1999 but I am not a racecar driver. Same as point #2 though - it does not help me prove anything!
Sometimes I do the walk of shame as I'm testing a board way too small for me. Sometimes I'm nuts overpowered as I'm using something too big and abusing it. Its how we learn.
Using your logic of asking me for pics of me sailing - well I could ask you to post pics of boards you made, given this is basically a board design thread. That's just silly though huh. I get plenty of feedback on the stuff I don't ride or the moves I don't perform as well as my customers do them. 4 major injuries to 3 limbs doesn't help though. If a surf shaper only rides mal's now he is old, do you say his shortboards must be crap...?
(4) I called you out on using caps, maybe you don't know its seen as shouting so sorry but you did look a bit overboard with anyone who disagreed. Use caps, use bold, I'm not a moderator so I'll shut up about your chosen formatting. Sorry for saying you go gal. Was outa line.
(5) Please stop sending P.M's about personal stuff and vile accusations to my friends and customers. FFS, its a disagreement about who likes toe-in. No need for it.
Let me know when you're here next I'll give you a board or two to test.
Peace and hope your forthcoming season is good.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
could be +/- 0.25 degree.
watch how Kai rips on this board compared to the other 2 boards he tested. the other 2 boards had more toe. One with significantly more toe.
this board notionally has minimal toe and looks to be on rails through the bottom turn with speed to burn.
yea- thats a load of bollox, i dropped that into cad and you cannot get anything meaningful without at least another couple of photos. toe could be zero or 2 degrees., zoom right in and it all pixelates and you cant pick up an edge. so its a fail for both of you.
here is another image that gives it at 1.4 degrees. its as meaningless and as innacurate as yours
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..Gestalt said..
could be +/- 0.25 degree.
watch how Kai rips on this board compared to the other 2 boards he tested. the other 2 boards had more toe. One with significantly more toe.
this board notionally has minimal toe and looks to be on rails through the bottom turn with speed to burn.
yea- thats a load of bollox, i dropped that into cad and you cannot get anything meaningful without at least another couple of photos. toe could be zero or 2 degrees., zoom right in and it all pixelates and you cant pick up an edge. so its a fail for both of you.
here is another image that gives it at 1.4 degrees. its as meaningless and as innacurate as yours
I
Aww dude your dimensions aren't even parallel or perpendicular to the lines.
Go on give it another crack. 
im sure you can force it anyway you choose.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..sheddweller said..Gestalt said..
could be +/- 0.25 degree.
watch how Kai rips on this board compared to the other 2 boards he tested. the other 2 boards had more toe. One with significantly more toe.
this board notionally has minimal toe and looks to be on rails through the bottom turn with speed to burn.
yea- thats a load of bollox, i dropped that into cad and you cannot get anything meaningful without at least another couple of photos. toe could be zero or 2 degrees., zoom right in and it all pixelates and you cant pick up an edge. so its a fail for both of you.
here is another image that gives it at 1.4 degrees. its as meaningless and as innacurate as yours
I
Aww dude your dimensions aren't even parallel or perpendicular to the lines.
Go on give it another crack. im sure you can force it anyway you choose.
bless !
yes, thats the point- and why your measurements are as useless as mine, you tried to use this photo to prove your point- but it just makes you look desperate. It doesnt prove seabreezer either- its completely useless to the discussion, but you keep going maybe you will convince somebody.
Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.
Select to expand quotephiln said..
Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.
is the flikka noticeably "draggy"?
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Fortunately for you sheddweller I know how to get it pretty close, and use cad
Haha, :-) cad, that's amazing well done! You should be proud of your achievement!
Then take your pretty picture find the mid point of your 2 transverse lines at the front and rear of the boxes and draw a line between them.
Then extrapolate this new line fore and aft and look where it ends up? It is not on the Centreline of the board
You could also take an aligned dimension between these 2 midpoints and pull it sideways, it will look exactly like my picture for the same reason.
There is no meaningful measurement to be made from this photo. It could be zero or 2 degrees of toe in on the box,s.
That's before we get into the pixelation issue.
You are guessing.
Strewth, now theres an argument about who's best on computers.
What is it with everyone on this thread trying to out do each other by being that little bit better and having a go at each other.
Can't we just leave it that some people like a bit of toe and some don't.
Personally I like a bit of Camel toe......
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
Can't we just leave it that some people like a bit of toe and some don't.
That pretty much nails it.
Still the thread makes great reading but probably for the wrong reasons. Some of us dream of having conditions consistent enough that we could start tweaking the gear to that level of detail.
Toe in Tassie style.
Select to expand quotesheddweller said..Gestalt said..
Fortunately for you sheddweller I know how to get it pretty close, and use cad
Haha, :-) cad, that's amazing well done! You should be proud of your achievement!
Then take your pretty picture find the mid point of your 2 transverse lines at the front and rear of the boxes and draw a line between them.
Then extrapolate this new line fore and aft and look where it ends up? It is not on the Centreline of the board
You could also take an aligned dimension between these 2 midpoints and pull it sideways, it will look exactly like my picture for the same reason.
There is no meaningful measurement to be made from this photo. It could be zero or 2 degrees of toe in on the box,s.
That's before we get into the pixelation issue.
You are guessing.
I have not done it behind the computer
I have had this board in 88 liters. The standard one with MT and straight boxes... not that custom one with us box front fins...(better). I was +18 liters over my weight...in low wind conditions...with 2nd TOE IN 12+14 the board is pure surf...to test the difference I have also tested 12cm without convergence (normal straight boxes the same as the 10 serial) the table was different... maybe if you never try...
Select to expand quotesanti4 said..sheddweller said..Gestalt said..
Fortunately for you sheddweller I know how to get it pretty close, and use cad
Haha, :-) cad, that's amazing well done! You should be proud of your achievement!
Then take your pretty picture find the mid point of your 2 transverse lines at the front and rear of the boxes and draw a line between them.
Then extrapolate this new line fore and aft and look where it ends up? It is not on the Centreline of the board
You could also take an aligned dimension between these 2 midpoints and pull it sideways, it will look exactly like my picture for the same reason.
There is no meaningful measurement to be made from this photo. It could be zero or 2 degrees of toe in on the box,s.
That's before we get into the pixelation issue.
You are guessing.
I have not done it behind the computer
I have had this board in 88 liters. The standard one with MT and straight boxes... not that custom one with us box front fins...(better). I was +18 liters over my weight...in low wind conditions...with 2nd TOE IN 12+14 the board is pure surf...to test the difference I have also tested 12cm without convergence (normal straight boxes the same as the 10 serial) the table was different... maybe if you never try...
wait, So you're saying you've never designed and built a board.
Select to expand quotewait, So you're saying you've never designed and built a board.
Now I don't. I did it as a hobby...but a lot of time and not much room at home..now just some modifications for friends...but it's better to try your trusted shaper and pay...we're both happier. I gave my boards away...I think some are still alive...they were very light
but this is not about me, it's about fins
honestly without realizing it.
..some are contaminating this post without contributing anything
...just subtracting.
..and perhaps this may be one of the few informations on the web about windsurfing fins toe in settings...in the future it may be of use to Many people
Select to expand quote
@gestalt - you have a shapers eye - yet can't see with the naked eye that pic those channels are Toed , and the side fins take the same line .. ? more than 1deg ??????
@MarkASelect to expand quote
(5) Please stop sending P.M's about personal stuff and vile accusations to my friends and customers. FFS, its a disagreement about who likes toe-in. No need for it.
You don't like people making assumptions about you ?) .... well don't make them about every other dude on here ... take the point ...
Ive NEVER shaped a board - but - last year I sailed 26 different boards in the year (incl protos etc) - and not for a quick hour - but up and down the beach - fin tweaks - usually over many sessions - until Im happy Ive seen the best performance ... And every board Ive jumped on the last 15 years - ive taken detailed measurements , 30/ofo/60/90/120etc , tuck , concaves , depths , rockerline , box placement ,thickness , basically everything etc etc to try and tease out cause and effect ... and then , fin notes so I get to a point where .... I never touch the set-up in a board ever again ....
@MarkA - How many boards you sail in a given year ? .... being a shaper .... ?
You call out people 'brand whore' - you have no idea what my loyalties are ... ? in the assy thread , I clearly said Kt's assy looked 'not the best ' under the feet of Juban , you take part bits of info and launch assumptions al the time ...I have a bunch of different brands in my quiver - I have some production boards that are so tuned in that I love as much as my fave custom KT - so much so ive grabbed back-ups of them ..... I don't love a Quatro because its 'fashionable' ' core' or whatever - the respect is earned when you grab a 'Levi' copy - and it is just fckn incredible ..... 'butter' in every moment .... every push , body angulation , whip , angle whatever - ridiculously spontaneous and intuitive ....ie a 'magic' board ... the other 2 are not quite as good as the Levi copy - but still very nice , point is - no blind worship - just full respect for KT and his work with Levi etc
For the record MarkA -IF your secret set-up is virtually straight boxes or 1 deg with flat insides assy - I tried that out on literally 'day 1 of starting testing assy / toe / can't back in 2011 ........ , 12 years ago .... and it got binned pretty quick , in favour of variations of 3deg and cant ......
btw - Bouke/ witchie was pretty open with his set-ups - yet you guard yours ??? (and I would argue he is probably selling more boards than you )
Peace ....
this for the 'neutral ' readers here that have stuck with the thread (despite all the petty BS )
For anybody interested in trying to get a bit more sideshore performance out of their boards .... K4's AI incinerator fronts are a really nice 'halfway' house in plan shape - between say Ezzy assymetrical flat inside fin (full surf style) , and stock fins .... I got hold of 3 sizes - 9's , 10's , 11's to pit against my go-to Ezzy 3 deg fins (for straight boxes ) , or the 1 deg Ezzy (maybe for flick/quatro customs / boxes with 1.5 deg toe built in) ....
They have a 70/30 foil .... Im finding them basically as good as the EZZY in full side off DTL .... they hold very similar (I take an AI front 1cm more than say Ezzy - as template is longer but narrower ) - so you have 9cm hold say vs 8cm Ezzy , VERY similar off the top ...... they're a bit stiffer than the Ezzy .... but also .... Im finding them really really fast upwind angles ..... So would be a really nice plug and play option for side on also ...
Anyways - they would be amazing option to have a few pairs in your bag - if your home spot suddenly goes surprise sideshore , or you travel somewhere with DTL conditions , and maybe then working in side-on as good / if not better than 'stock' fins ...
I like also the idea of narrower base (vs Ezzy) for quad use - little bit more free flowing area around cluster ... back leading edges of fronts mirroring the leading edges of rears a little more ( where ezzys are much more raked against Leading edge of rear ... )
sizing wise - I would say quads - upto around about 80kgs - 9cm fronts would be good (I'm 77kgs) - run with 15.5 rears g10
Not fully sure for heavier guys but
maybe 80-85 kgs - 10cm fronts ? ....
above 86-90kgs - maybe 11cm ??
above 90kgs maybe 12 's ?
depends what you've been running in your board / got used to size wise
They come in 1 or 2 deg .... so far - the 2 deg working really really good in straight boxes .... for DTL
Worth a try - and after 15 pages of forum punishment on the eyeballs - is about the most 'generalised' , grounded advice I can give for anyone to try .. they will run a bit more 'streamlined' I think than the chunky draft front stock fins that come with most cobra multifins (that to my eye just look horridly thick ) ...
Select to expand quotephiln said..
Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.
I think there's something about the pyro / nano clusters IMO that might not suit TOE or ASSY ,.... they're quite 'tight' and in line ... and the flow might get a bit complex unless straight and symms .... so Im fully with you on that ... (and seen numerous examples lots pro's epic turns on say nano)
random - but - something like say the new starboard hyper - turny front fins (TOE/CANT) might make something like that rail taper / cluster spacing - too turny / lack drive off the top .... ULTRA likes TOE / k4
The AI's have been the most noticeable change for my quad
after doing every other tune with the stock setup to improve turning.
Thanks Steve from k4 for help with sizing .
Select to expand quoteRango said..
The AI's have been the most noticeable change for my quad
after doing every other tune with the stock setup to improve turning.
Thanks Steve from k4 for help with sizing .
did you go 1 or 2 deg ? ...
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
1 degree 9's in a 1.5 degree box.Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..Rango said..
The AI's have been the most noticeable change for my quad
after doing every other tune with the stock setup to improve turning.
Thanks Steve from k4 for help with sizing .
did you go 1 or 2 deg ? ...
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..philn said..
Measured my Quatro Cube and Severne Pyro, both zero toe. Measured my Flikka, 1 degree toe using the K4 calculator. All 3 boards are awesome.
I think there's something about the pyro / nano clusters IMO that might not suit TOE or ASSY ,.... they're quite 'tight' and in line ... and the flow might get a bit complex unless straight and symms .... so Im fully with you on that ... (and seen numerous examples lots pro's epic turns on say nano)
random - but - something like say the new starboard hyper - turny front fins (TOE/CANT) might make something like that rail taper / cluster spacing - too turny / lack drive off the top .... ULTRA likes TOE / k4
Hey Seabreezer,
After 15 pages of you putting forward the idea that wave boards need toe to perform and anyone that doesn't agree is just not a good enough sailor. You deliver this nugget.
"I think there's something about the pyro / nano clusters IMO that might not suit TOE or ASSY ,.... they're quite 'tight' and in line ... and the flow might get a bit complex unless straight and symms .... so Im fully with you on that ... (and seen numerous examples lots pro's epic turns on say nano)"
please don't include me in any of your future demented rants nor send me any demented incoherent pm's.
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.
Select to expand quote@gestalt - said this below on Sunday 30th - page 13
also - have said before about starby quads not liking on 87 , 84 ok with 80/20 1 deg - but did not like 3 deg ... 77starby was insane tho with 3 deg - so as the boards got smaller - they got better accepting TOED fronts .... boards with alot of hip width curve (like starby) sometimes struggle a bit .... Also mentioned very many pages ago I saw a nano sailor on the water that day get amazing turn ... seabreezer said..
I agree - on something like NANO , or PYRO , if the cluster is very close together - and the front boxes are lining up very close width wise with rears - aggressive TOE might complicate things ... In my 13yo sons nano - I will try a set of 1deg / 7's for him .... might work great - especially with the double concave in tail
Select to expand quoteRango said..Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.
I'm 92kg and usually using 5.8m sail and quite a side rip too. I'd just go sideways with a 16cm fin, board is 113 litres too.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
After 15 pages of you putting forward the idea that wave boards need toe to perform and anyone that doesn't agree is just not a good enough sailor. You deliver this nugget.
I think the whole cruz of the issue is this .... its the chicken or the egg ....... do you
A ) get better despite your stock set-up (hard ) - then adjust / convert later .... or
B) adjust your set-up and grow ....into it .....becoming a better sailor (and it helping you become a better sailor)
I would say B is the way to go .... ? easier curve of progression ..... I think ..... if that's the case - every ability level would be better off trying it .... that's my basic view ... (and why the discussion is important )
For me its not a fight over 1 degree of TOE ....... its a fight over being able to lay bottom turns with 30% more power .... or making sure 95% of your bottom turns get you on the face where you need to go without bouncing out , or 35% nicer feel on the rail off the top - that's the real numbers - not 1 deg here , 1 deg there - this is THE BATTLEGROUND ....
saying were fighting over a few degrees is reductive - as the real numbers are success rates , and sensations ....
Select to expand quoteWind Smurf said..Rango said..Wind Smurf said..
I don't know if a side fin will do anything to my board as its got a fairly deep mono concave in the tail from under the front strap right off the tail.
Its pretty sluggish to get the tail to release, been using 10cm Black projects with either a 25cm maui ultra fin or a 22cm onshore wave fin which seems to work better.
Any ideas ?????? Quite like the idea of the A.I fins as they dont seem as chunky as the Ezzy's.
A 25 /22 cm fin is huge for a multi fin ,I would personally use a 16 and 10s in a thruster but I'm 72kg.Reducing rear fin size will certainly help with tail release before messing around with fronts.
I'm 92kg and usually using 5.8m sail and quite a side rip too. I'd just go sideways with a 16cm fin, board is 113 litres too.
Ok , so you could increase the front fin size to reduce the rear which will be locking that tail in.Its all a balance though depending on what you want out of your board.
