Select to expand quotelarsdegroot said..
Am i the only one that doesn't like the longer and narrow(er) boards? Yes they come up foil fast and yes the glide is awesome. But i'm a jumper and i simply miss a stable platform to land on. I've been riding a KT Ginxu V2 in 62L for a while and because its pretty narrow in the nose, after a jump or freestyle move, it just doesn t bounce back on foil. Its a great board for waves and free Flying, but thats it IMO.
I now have a new Gong Lemon FSP ' 25 on order. 4'10 and wide in the nose. It might come up foil a little less early than the KT, but i dont care.
With with my son and few other guys in Sydney we all agree with you. We enjoy jumping and riding waves (proper surf) and for both smaller boards are way better. I have a sup board for surf foil and super light wind but IMO the only thing that it does better than the short board is getting up on foil quick and easy. It's 6'6 and I really feel the length and the weight. In surf terms, difference between a long board and a short board. Always happy to change to the sinker.
88kg
4'11 x 22 x 60l
only using 2 foils. Armstrong 780 for light wind and MA 800 for bigger surf or over 20knots.
935 mast, chopped 140 tail.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.
I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.
So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.
Thanks for this tip. I have recently bought a Smik Stok'r Breeze (6' x 19.5" 85L) and there has definitely been some teething problems learning to take off in heavy chop compared to my old wide board.
Until recently, my go to method has been to get to my knees with one hand on the leading edge of the wing positioned close to rail of the board. This acted like a stabilising out-rigger. Then quickly raise the wing and try to get up to my feet once I had good forward motion. This method was quite successful though I would still occasionally get rolled by the chop when getting the wing into my hands.
I tried your method yesterday, and it worked beautifully. Point downwind, wing at right angle across the nose of the board, lift the wing and sweep it towards the rear of the board to bring it side on to the wind and I was away and riding. Great hack. Thanks.
Select to expand quoteDukeSilver said..BWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.
I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.
So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.
Thanks for this tip. I have recently bought a Smik Stok'r Breeze (6' x 19.5" 85L) and there has definitely been some teething problems learning to take off in heavy chop compared to my old wide board.
Until recently, my go to method has been to get to my knees with one hand on the leading edge of the wing positioned close to rail of the board. This acted like a stabilising out-rigger. Then quickly raise the wing and try to get up to my feet once I had good forward motion. This method was quite successful though I would still occasionally get rolled by the chop when getting the wing into my hands.
I tried your method yesterday, and it worked beautifully. Point downwind, wing at right angle across the nose of the board, lift the wing and sweep it towards the rear of the board to bring it side on to the wind and I was away and riding. Great hack. Thanks.
DukeSilver
Same Same, Im on a STOKR Breeze 85l and had to remind myself to stay pointed downwind today, no swell or chop, but the technique Bryan demonstrated really helped minimise the times I got rolled. The lack of any buoyancy in the nose on this board does make it a challenge, but hey, once you're up they are so good to throw around, Im just "powder snowboarding" even on flat water every session, laying over into the wind as hard as I can driving the board down then letting it pop back up and flicking it back downwind on the rising mast, level out briefly and do it all over again...
Im actually looking forward to getting out into some decent open ocean swell and wind chop again to see if I cement the technique in trickier conditions...
Select to expand quotecamerongraham said..DukeSilver said..BWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.
I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.
So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.
Thanks for this tip. I have recently bought a Smik Stok'r Breeze (6' x 19.5" 85L) and there has definitely been some teething problems learning to take off in heavy chop compared to my old wide board.
Until recently, my go to method has been to get to my knees with one hand on the leading edge of the wing positioned close to rail of the board. This acted like a stabilising out-rigger. Then quickly raise the wing and try to get up to my feet once I had good forward motion. This method was quite successful though I would still occasionally get rolled by the chop when getting the wing into my hands.
I tried your method yesterday, and it worked beautifully. Point downwind, wing at right angle across the nose of the board, lift the wing and sweep it towards the rear of the board to bring it side on to the wind and I was away and riding. Great hack. Thanks.
DukeSilver
Same Same, Im on a STOKR Breeze 85l and had to remind myself to stay pointed downwind today, no swell or chop, but the technique Bryan demonstrated really helped minimise the times I got rolled. The lack of any buoyancy in the nose on this board does make it a challenge, but hey, once you're up they are so good to throw around, Im just "powder snowboarding" even on flat water every session, laying over into the wind as hard as I can driving the board down then letting it pop back up and flicking it back downwind on the rising mast, level out briefly and do it all over again...
Im actually looking forward to getting out into some decent open ocean swell and wind chop again to see if I cement the technique in trickier conditions...
Yep they are a fantastic board. I love mine. A couple of gentle pumps of the wing and I'm up and riding compared to the blunt nosed barge I had been persisting with for years
. How is your stance on the board with the Go Foil? The front wing looks way forward of the mast.
Select to expand quoteDukeSilver said..camerongraham said..DukeSilver said..BWalnut said..
Pros and cons for sure. Some people will report that sinkers really help them in choppy conditions. I, on the other hand, at 86kg have no problem on a 90l but find a 66l to be mildly harder but not extremely worse.
I think it really comes down to what type of stabilization most people are comfortable with. Add in starting technique and kit priorities to get different reports. I never stinkbug, even on tiny boards, I just kneel on the board with the wing across the deck (forming a plus sign) and am incredibly stable in that position. Then I snap the wing up into my hands and am off to the races. The low volume midlength boards are great in strong winds but the neutral volume boards have much better slog, prone paddle, low end characteristics.
So, you might consider going to a longer board. A 5' 85l board is going to be far less stable than a 6' 85l board because the fore to aft stabilization needs are dramatically decreased.
Thanks for this tip. I have recently bought a Smik Stok'r Breeze (6' x 19.5" 85L) and there has definitely been some teething problems learning to take off in heavy chop compared to my old wide board.
Until recently, my go to method has been to get to my knees with one hand on the leading edge of the wing positioned close to rail of the board. This acted like a stabilising out-rigger. Then quickly raise the wing and try to get up to my feet once I had good forward motion. This method was quite successful though I would still occasionally get rolled by the chop when getting the wing into my hands.
I tried your method yesterday, and it worked beautifully. Point downwind, wing at right angle across the nose of the board, lift the wing and sweep it towards the rear of the board to bring it side on to the wind and I was away and riding. Great hack. Thanks.
DukeSilver
Same Same, Im on a STOKR Breeze 85l and had to remind myself to stay pointed downwind today, no swell or chop, but the technique Bryan demonstrated really helped minimise the times I got rolled. The lack of any buoyancy in the nose on this board does make it a challenge, but hey, once you're up they are so good to throw around, Im just "powder snowboarding" even on flat water every session, laying over into the wind as hard as I can driving the board down then letting it pop back up and flicking it back downwind on the rising mast, level out briefly and do it all over again...
Im actually looking forward to getting out into some decent open ocean swell and wind chop again to see if I cement the technique in trickier conditions...
Yep they are a fantastic board. I love mine. A couple of gentle pumps of the wing and I'm up and riding compared to the blunt nosed barge I had been persisting with for years. How is your stance on the board with the Go Foil? The front wing looks way forward of the mast.
As per my previous post on the STOKR Breeze, disappointingly for me, it doesn't suit the V2 GoFoil mast, even set as far back as possible and running the smallest stab available, so I've got a custom STOKR Breeze wing board on order with the tracks set further back...I'm having to do some pretty funky foot shuffles to get up and fly level....basically sinking the tail to get up and then immediately moving forward as fast as possible and practically Hang 10 on the nose.....I suppose it's helping me get a really good feel for this style of board (85 litres for my 85Kg) and when I get the custom Breeze, I theoretically should be able to adjust my stance pretty quickly and adapt.
Which brings me back to the original post....Bryan's technique for getting going in swell/chop has been especially relevant as I need to be kneeling with maximum stability so I can focus on getting to my feet without sinking the nose, pumping onto foil as quickly as possible and then shifting forward to bring the nose down....
Hi guys!
Another perspective is how low u can go in volume. I used my pronefoil today for wing. Old lethal Gong 54l... Start wasn't a problem. I am 95kg and normally use 85l and 75l.it was very windy and I used a 3.5 Handwing. What u guys think? Does it all come down to what foil and Handwing u use?
Select to expand quoteDriks said..
Hi guys!
Another perspective is how low u can go in volume. I used my pronefoil today for wing. Old lethal Gong 54l... Start wasn't a problem. I am 95kg and normally use 85l and 75l.it was very windy and I used a 3.5 Handwing. What u guys think? Does it all come down to what foil and Handwing u use?
I think it comes down to everything...user, conditions, board, foil, wing...
It would be good to hear how big chop compares with those 3 board volumes...I keep being told that near or just below rider weight in volume (slight sinker) is hardest, but that is counterintuitive to me...(seems like sitting with board just below surface, without any crazy underwater balancing would be ideal)
Yeah... This 54l today was Surprising stable while Kneeling on it. I would say 20 to 30 cm under water. Chop was not that high as it was on a lake. But it is 5'4" in length and i heard it's getting unstable when shorter. I wonder how light the wind can be with that board.
You can go as low volume as you want, it comes down to how big of a foil and wing you want to use. When you push any individual piece of gear to the small size extreme the other pieces are going to have to compensate. Historically we saw most people ride 1 foil and 1 board with a larger quiver of wings. For me, that's changed to desiring 3-4 foils, 3 boards, and fewer wing choices.
Most people overestimate the amount of power it takes to get a -15-20 sinker with an efficient shape to the surface. If you have good technique, it takes no more power to get that board to the surface than it takes to pump it onto foil. You shouldn't need to oversize your gear for a board of that size as long as it is an efficient shape. People are oversizing their volume to compensate for technique.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
People are oversizing their volume to compensate for technique.
I am proof of that 
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
Most people overestimate the amount of power it takes to get a -15-20 sinker with an efficient shape to the surface. If you have good technique, it takes no more power to get that board to the surface than it takes to pump it onto foil. You shouldn't need to oversize your gear for a board of that size as long as it is an efficient shape. People are oversizing their volume to compensate for technique.
I agree that patience and good technique get you up well on those liters with the right shape but there are other factors to consider too. Slogging and in some ways personal safety is definitely decreased on a -15 to -20. Some places have gustier and holier winds so you end up waiting longer. So, yes, some might be compensating for technique but I think they also consider the other variables in their overall board choice.
Sinker needs to be 50% of your weight in volume or even less volume. A full sinker with feet in the straps and board under water is less affected by super big chop but still something to learn and you need to be at least in mid range of your wing and +. It's more physical if wind is gusty.
a semi-sinker is coarky and if also short, it's less stable than a longer semi-sinker. The diff?rence is you need to keep the board stable on 2 axes instead of just one for a longer board.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
Sinker needs to be 50% of your weight in volume or even less volume. A full sinker with feet in the straps and board under water is less affected by super big chop but still something to learn and you need to be at least in mid range of your wing and +. It's more physical if wind is gusty.
a semi-sinker is coarky and if also short, it's less stable than a longer semi-sinker. The diff?rence is you need to keep the board stable on 2 axes instead of just one for a longer board.
I am riding -30 and have on order -35.had many boards and the hardest board I had was a 75l (-15) it was super hard to kneel on it and was a constant fight not sinking enough and getting pushed by the chop.
once the board is fully underwater everything becomes easier. It's easy to grab the wing and way easier to kneel or stand.Yes you need more wind to reach the surface but once on top of the water it goes on foil easy. I don't use a bigger wing or foil. if it is very light I get out in my sup board.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..
Sinker needs to be 50% of your weight in volume or even less volume. A full sinker with feet in the straps and board under water is less affected by super big chop but still something to learn and you need to be at least in mid range of your wing and +. It's more physical if wind is gusty.
a semi-sinker is coarky and if also short, it's less stable than a longer semi-sinker. The diff?rence is you need to keep the board stable on 2 axes instead of just one for a longer board.
That means 55l is to much for me with 95kg? Are there any recommendations for length? What is to short?
I'm curious about a beginner kitefoil board around 30L for flat water use. My current sinker is 65L, 5'5" and hard to balance but easy to ride once its at the surface. I'm 93kg plus a bunch of neoprene for reference.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
I'm curious about a beginner kitefoil board around 30L for flat water use. My current sinker is 65L, 5'5" and hard to balance but easy to ride once its at the surface. I'm 93kg plus a bunch of neoprene for reference.
At 86kg I used a 37.5l for a bit and it wasn't worth it to me. Pretty fun when flagged out and pumping around but it required so much extra sail to get off the water it was a no-go for me. I couldn't see significant enough benefits in that board to justify the larger sail and foil.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
I'm curious about a beginner kitefoil board around 30L for flat water use. My current sinker is 65L, 5'5" and hard to balance but easy to ride once its at the surface. I'm 93kg plus a bunch of neoprene for reference.
IMO that will be too extreme. Perfectly doable but will be hard work and require a larger wing or foil.
like anything you need to find the sweet spot. For me at 88kg without gear is around 55l to 60l. But the 60l in summer with no rubber becomes harder work. I think that -30L makes the board stable underwater and doesn't require any larger wing or foil. If it is light and gusty it won't be fun though, or you need to make sure you don't fall much. So conditions and skill level of course are part of the equation.
At -15 liters, my board was very frustrating, in the beginning, to get to my knees and the wing over head. The board is 4'8x 24". I did get used to it though and it's no problem now even in rough conditions. It has plenty of volume to slog back to the beach. It sounds like a -30 liter board might not be much harder. Especially with a little more length.
I'm 80 kg and have a 65 and 51 litre board. With the 65 litre I can use the full wind range of the wing. The 51 litre only works in the top half of the wings wing range because I need so much more grunt to get up. (As described in an earlier post - I really liked this analogy). The 65 is physically easier and more sensible but 51 is much more fun.
I'm 78kgs but have 5/4 hooded suit due to 0C air/water so weight is over 80kgs. Anyhow, I just got Appleslice v3 60L, which is 5'0 x 21,5. I think one should also take into account the length of the board as the shorter the harder even though the litres are the same. Hence affecting to the usable wind range of the wings, ie. need to be at the upper range or use the full range of the wing. I would hate to be too powered up when the wind picks up a bit from the start due to having a board needing upper range of the wing. For me, in choppy waters, -20L is very doable. 75% of my BW that is.
All that sounds to me like there is a boundary between "lighter" and mid to strong wind when it comes to usage of semi sinker vs. full sinker!? As said before I wondered how good full sinkers are manageable in more lighter winds? Let's say 10 knots ground wind with up to 20 knots gusts!
Not to ignore the starting topic I experienced that a floater is more critical in chop or waves than a semi sinker. I don't really know about full sinker yet but I had a wave session with lighter winds and other guys around me pushed small gear to the limit. Like small boards with small wings and I recognized they struggled more to get on foil and into the smaller waves (knee to waist high).
I'm riding pretty much neutral at 72L. I did try a 54L in around 13-15kn and had a good time once up on foil (1240 ), but getting started in the chop was a pain and I'm not sure I'd be wanting the same struggle or waiting for gusts all the time.
Pretty sure it would be much easier with foot straps?? How many sinker riders do ( or don't use ), foot straps?
Select to expand quoteDriks said..NordRoi said..
Sinker needs to be 50% of your weight in volume or even less volume. A full sinker with feet in the straps and board under water is less affected by super big chop but still something to learn and you need to be at least in mid range of your wing and +. It's more physical if wind is gusty.
a semi-sinker is coarky and if also short, it's less stable than a longer semi-sinker. The diff?rence is you need to keep the board stable on 2 axes instead of just one for a longer board.
That means 55l is to much for me with 95kg? Are there any recommendations for length? What is to short?
No its not.I,m 95kg on a very good day/when we runned out of cookies and chocolate, now with 5mm hooded suit etc 100/103kg and really like my KT Wingdrifter 5.4x22x56l in solid 20knots and gusts above with AFS 850 and 1050 foils. I tried smaaler and that made it for me harder to start...imo mainly due the lack of length but that comes with lower volume (the 5.4 is allready pretty thin).That said, when its short period chaos, onshorish I rather grab my 6.5x22x92l SuperK just because its soo much easier to slog on, push through acouple of waves and then get on the foil instead of sinking the seccond I lose sped on the 56l.btw, I ride always strapless
Select to expand quoteJeroensurf said..
No its not.I,m 95kg on a very good day/when we runned out of cookies and chocolate, now with 5mm hooded suit etc 100/103kg and really like my KT Wingdrifter 5.4x22x56l in solid 20knots and gusts above with AFS 850 and 1050 foils. I tried smaaler and that made it for me harder to start...imo mainly due the lack of length but that comes with lower volume (the 5.4 is allready pretty thin).That said, when its short period chaos, onshorish I rather grab my 6.5x22x92l SuperK just because its soo much easier to slog on, push through acouple of waves and then get on the foil instead of sinking the seccond I lose sped on the 56l.btw, I ride always strapless
Running out of cookies and chocolate is the worst!
What wing would you use with the 56l and 850 when it's solid 20 knots? I have't explored sinkers of that ratio too much but ride those foils so I'd love to hear what wing you need!
Select to expand quoteomg said..
I'm 78kgs but have 5/4 hooded suit due to 0C air/water so weight is over 80kgs. Anyhow, I just got Appleslice v3 60L, which is 5'0 x 21,5. I think one should also take into account the length of the board as the shorter the harder even though the litres are the same. Hence affecting to the usable wind range of the wings, ie. need to be at the upper range or use the full range of the wing. I would hate to be too powered up when the wind picks up a bit from the start due to having a board needing upper range of the wing. For me, in choppy waters, -20L is very doable. 75% of my BW that is.
how do u find the appleslice v3 ? thinking about it as its bit wider the armstrong ML
Select to expand quoteLucasUK said..omg said..
I'm 78kgs but have 5/4 hooded suit due to 0C air/water so weight is over 80kgs. Anyhow, I just got Appleslice v3 60L, which is 5'0 x 21,5. I think one should also take into account the length of the board as the shorter the harder even though the litres are the same. Hence affecting to the usable wind range of the wings, ie. need to be at the upper range or use the full range of the wing. I would hate to be too powered up when the wind picks up a bit from the start due to having a board needing upper range of the wing. For me, in choppy waters, -20L is very doable. 75% of my BW that is.
how do u find the appleslice v3 ? thinking about it as its bit wider the armstrong ML
Only ridden it two times so far, and in the upper range (def. not nearly overpowered) of the 3m Unit SLS, so cannot really comment on the low end of the board other than that the board gets up to speed really quickly and on to foil then. Side wise very stable. My other board is Armstrong 6'3 x 18,75 85L for light/medium winds (however it works very well in surprisingly heavy winds). I'm a tall dude, 190cm x 78kgs, so I wondered beforehand how's the stability length wise, and first couple of times it wasn't super easy but once I found out where my knees need to be, it helped a lot. It is a bit unstable length wise for me, but I would guess shorter people this would be less of an issue (the taller the higher the center of gravity). Now I installed the straps but haven't ridden it with them, but to my mind this sized board (at least for me with Armstrong) is made to be ridden with straps.
Construction is nice; I accidentally hit the board to the rocks while carrying the board before going to the water, and for normal structured board that would have been it, but with the closed cell foam I was fine to go out. I'm a bit puzzled that the board is black but should be ok with the sun, but will take it to shade as much as possible.
Footstraps placements are nice; I can get an offset for back foot and multiple options for front foot. Board is not the lightest being 5,05kg, but seems to be stiff like Armstrong when pumping.
Waveriding wise the outline looks to be good; although wider than my Armstrong, I didn't have any problems with the rails touching water while turning.
Responding to the initial question:
In my experience, a "sinker" board of 0.8 (L-volume to kg-weight) is much easier to start than 0.54. Being closer to the surface results in a more corky experience, however accelerating requires much less effort; less awkward balancing and less pumping. Minimizing struggle = longer sessions.
I started with a 0.54 sinker 2 years ago, and due to the lighter-winds in my area, I could only realistically ride this sinker 2-3 times a year. Now, with my 0.8 board, I ride it about 50% of the time. The difference is that I am closer to the surface and better able to gain the momentum that is necessary to launch. To be clear, I only use my 0.8 board when I have decent wind and power in my wing. I need about 15 kts for this board to be feasible and am able to launch in about 20 seconds. If wind is marginal, I ride a big-ol' SUP board.
After trying several methods for launching, the rodeo method has worked best for me. I'm posting this video to show you what works for me in the hope that it will help a few of you folks out there. Of course, we are all different people, have different skills, body types, and flexibilities. So, I am not suggesting that other methods won't work better for other people. Watch the video to see how I launch after a fall. I have included pointers on the technique I use in the description of the vide. Let me know what you think.
Board dimensions: 4'8 x 20 1/2 x 4" x 58L
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
I'm curious about a beginner kitefoil board around 30L for flat water use. My current sinker is 65L, 5'5" and hard to balance but easy to ride once its at the surface. I'm 93kg plus a bunch of neoprene for reference.
I met a kitefoiler who also winged his 20l? board. He said he needed 2.5m depth to start.
